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| Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point http://lbcarchive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17445 |
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| Author: | Geoff Mullett [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Birders who in the past have walked north from Horseshoe Point (or south from Northcoates) are no longer able to do so. Historically, the sea bank was a public footpath, but was closed during WW2 by the MoD who requisitioned the adjoining airfield. The Right of Way was never reinstated and now the MoD have sold the land to the Humber Wildfowlers, who now own the land from the bottom of the sea bank (on the landward side) to the low water line, and have fenced off the whole area. there are locked gates, barbed wire and, I'm informed, goose fat across the top of the gates to deter climbing. We now have no access to the MoD Pools or the lower Borrow Pit. The Grimsby-Louth Ramblers hope to reclaim this path (shown on OS maps as a Right of Way since the early 1900s) and would be glad to receive evidence of usage over the past 20 years. Contact through me please. You can see the relevant maps at: http://www.grimsbylouthramblers.org.uk/northcoates.html In the meantime, I have a 'mole' who has given me the lock number. It's 2780. This should give access through all the gates. Distribute it freely, but don't say where you got it from! If it doesn't work, please let me know and I'll find out what it's been changed to. |
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| Author: | Graham Catley [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
I am not 100% sure on the legality of this but I have heard many times that the land between the MHWM and MLWM is of open access and cannot be blocked; this land on the upper estuary belongs to the crown or ABP -- clearly this needs to be looked into by a proper legal process but it is part of the SPA and so Natural England would be a good start point? the area holds the largest pre roost and roost gathering of Common Terns on the east coast and disturbance of this roost alone would be very serious. The full details of what is going on and what is and is not legal needs to be sorted out before any precedents are set |
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| Author: | Geoff Williams [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Aren't these fences just temporary while the flood banks are strengthened? |
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| Author: | Geoff Mullett [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
No Geoff. I'm talking about further north, above Horseshoe Point. Geoff |
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| Author: | Chris Atkin [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
If you head north from Horseshoe car park you immediately have to "negotiate" the temporary Environment Agency fencing before you eventually come to the Wildfowlers locked gate and fencing obstacle. regards Chris |
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| Author: | Michael Surr [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
This should easily be done by the Ramblers, as the former footpath officer, we sorted this out many years ago with the MoD and Lincolnshire County Council, it is on the definitive map at Manby, the footpath being No 50. So it should be in the paperwork some where with the Grimsby Ramblers and with the Lincoln group going back to the Brett Collier days, Stuart Parker may also help. Mike Surr, |
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| Author: | Geoff Mullett [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Thanks Mike, that's useful stuff! Geoff |
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| Author: | Matthew Harrison [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
From a little bit of investigation, the way Geoff is proposing (i.e proving continued use) is perhaps the only way forward with this. The following may be of interest or help. There is currently no Public Right of Way (PROW) recognised or shown on the Definative Map (linking existing paths) between Horseshoe Point and Tetney along the seawall (including that which passes Northcoates Point and the MOD Pools). In the 1950s a stopping up order was made to the existing footpath order (FP18) by the MOD assocaited with the airfield complex which ran along this section of the seabank and which was subsequently granted. Therefore no recognised PROW has been in place since then. The MOD submitted a Statutory Declaration with the local authority in 1978 depositing a map and statement to the effect that no new PROW could be claimed over this land. This expired in 1984. Just out of interest, if for example, the seabank was still owned by the MOD then this could not be claimed as a right of way under use, as this is not permitted over Crown Land. An application could be made under Common Law however. Assuming that this area is now solely under private ownership, then the 20 year rule applies. With witness eveidence of continued use an application can be made through Lincolnshire County Council to claim this as a Public Right of Way which would mean access must be maintained along the bank. However, I believe due to legalities involved, this can be a rather lengthy process, and of course whilst this is ongoing there is nothing to stop the area being gated or fenced by the current owners. It is also worth bearing in mind that any right of way application will only refer to the seabank and will have no bearing on what may happen on adjoining land up to the High/Low water marks. The advice would seem to be that anyone who enjoys birding this area and would like to see access maintained along the seabank, then support needs to be offered to help prove its continued use over the years. Support from the local communities (i.e. dog walkers and the like who regularly use this area) would also be very beneficial. Matthew |
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| Author: | Geoff Mullett [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Matthew, that information is very helpful, we were wondering which way to go on this. We were thinking about the Common Law route, but weren't sure as the sea bank is now under new ownership. The 20-year claim can only be made up to the point the Wildfowlers bought the land as they have made it clear with their signs, gates etc that they are not prepared to give public access, so we might stand a better chance fighting them. I visited the site at Horseshoe Point today, not realising that none of the sea bank going north is walkable while sea defence work is going on. Didn't have time to walk down from the Tetney end. My original posting on this forum was to ask for evidence of of usage over the past 20 years, so that would be very welcome. regards Geoff |
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| Author: | Graham Catley [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Does the sea defence ie the bank not belong to the Env Agency as they maintain same? No one seems to have stated whether they have put a fence out across the saltmarsh / mudflats? This would surely be an infringement of the conservation status of the inter-tidal. |
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| Author: | Geoff Mullett [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Seems as though the Wildfowlers have purchased the whole lot. I'm told that they have fenced down to the low water line, though I haven't had that corroborated. If they have, that's an awful lot of fencing! If anyone plans to walk down from the Tetney end I'd be pelased to get their report. Geoff |
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| Author: | Michael Surr [ Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
We never seem to get agreement on issues raised, M Harrison has got the wrong footpath when he states FP18, this starts at Northcoates Points, round the farm/sewage works to Tetney Lock, turns left down south side to the pub. FP50 is were the disputed footpath is, the number of which was taken off the definitive map at ELDC Manby. To prove usage both the Ramblers and wanderlust have kept records of walks, and since the obstructions were taken down. Mike Surr |
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| Author: | Geoff Mullett [ Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Viewing the temporary closure notice for the sea bank path at Horseshoe Point yesterday, it did indeed refer to FP 18. I'll be viewing the Definitive Map in the coming week. Geoff |
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| Author: | Geoff Mullett [ Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
Been in touch with Highways dept. at Lincoln. The definitive Map is there, no copy to view at Manby. I'm told the path in question does not now exist. The path from Tetney is NCoa 18/1. From Horseshoe Point going north, it’s NCoa 18/3. Presumably the missing bit was NCoa 18/2. As it was extinguished, there is nothing to view on the Definitive Map (and no record of a FP50). As I see it, The Ramblers can: • Do nothing, and wait for the Coastal Path to come our way. See the likelyhood of that at: http://www.grimsbylouthramblers.org.uk/ ... access.pdf • Contact the Wildfowlers officially and ask if they would dedicate a RoW along the sea bank only (so not off the bank). • start a Definitive Map Modification Order process, claiming constant use for 20+ years. There should be no difficulty proving constant use, but looking at the LCC priority list, there are claims started in 1983 that have yet to be looked at. • claim Common Law Dedication, though I’m not sure about this. See: http://www.ramblers.org.uk/rights_of_wa ... dedication In the meantime, any information regarding the fencing off of the land down to the low water line would be welcome. Geoff |
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| Author: | Michael Surr [ Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Horseshoe Point to Northcoates Point |
I realise have been away from footpaths and the law for some time, but we seem to be going backward, I sat in the Manby offices for hours copying footpath numbers on to my maps, and they just do not disappear. Anyway have been in touch with the lincolnshire Fieldpaths association, to put them in the picture, they will discuss it and see if they can help in anyway. Mike Surr |
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