The Lincolnshire Bird Club
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Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
http://lbcarchive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21367		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Jim Wright [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
Is it time to consider re-opening this site to contributions from non-members of the LBC? It might make it more vibrant.

Currently, relatively few members contribute so it might encourage more lively and diverse debate if outsiders were allowed (encouraged) to chip in.

After all, if only one birder posts a message, it isn't a forum - it's just a soapbox.
Author:  Stuart Britton [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
At an LBC AGM some years ago I proposed that only LBC Members should be able to contribute to this Forum and this was agreed. An indirect result was that another Forum was set up by those who chose not to support the LBC. I have not changed my mind as the Lincs Bird Club finances the Forum and I do not see why those who chose not to pay their membership should be afforded the same privilege as members. However, the advent of blogs,Twitter and other social media outlets that are beyond me have already lured away a lot of previously prolific contributors. That, as they, is progress!
Author:  Jim Wright [ Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
Thanks, Stuart - I appreciate your post and understand the principle.

But surely everyone (including LBC members) misses out if there is a restriction on who can submit input re sightings/ opinion etc.

I don't believe the site benefits at all by being a closed shop.

There are other advantages to being a LBC member - eg the annual report. (Here's hoping publication of the 2012 edition isn't too far off.)

Fully agree that the onset of Twitter etc have changed the landscape. Here's hoping that this site doesn't face being edged to extinction because, as relative newcomer, I really enjoy it.

Huge respect to all involved in its creation and maintenance! :D
Author:  Geoff Williams [ Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
I always thought it was a stupid idea to stop non members from contributing directly to the forum, they can still read all our news but we can't read theirs unless they go to the trouble of emailing Andrew.
I would have voted against the proposal if I could have got to the AGM, it would have been better to have had a vote on the forum by people who actually use it. Can a Poll be set up?
Geoff
Author:  John Clarkson [ Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
Geoff

If you start a new topic you can include your own poll

John
Author:  Geoff Williams [ Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
John Clarkson wrote:
Geoff

If you start a new topic you can include your own poll

John

As Jim started the ball rolling, I'll leave it up to him.
Geoff
Author:  Jim Wright [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
Oh no, the ball's back in my court :(

The trouble with online polls/petitions is that they're black and white - they don't allow debate about the pros and cons.

Another drawback: how many votes would be needed at a minimum for the poll to be deemed valid?

I would prefer it if there were to be an agenda item at the next annual meeting inviting members to consider whether the website should accept posts submitted by non-members.

Anyone sufficiently interested could have their say, then cast their vote.

But there would still need to be clarification on the minimum number of votes required for the poll to be valid. Is there anything in the constitution about this?

Ideally, the agenda item would be submitted by a committee member who would explain the rationale for retaining the current restriction. The floor would then be open to anyone else to challenge the restriction.

(If the proposal is submitted by a LBC "back-bencher"/ newcomer, she/he/ might risk being dubbed a rabble-rouser/ trouble-maker.)

Incidentally, could I reiterate my earlier suggestion for the annual meeting to be held on a Saturday afternoon in a village/public hall rather than (as is the present custom) in the evening at a pub/hotel?

If the location was somewhere like Skegness, Spilsby or Louth, members could make day of it by visiting nearby birding places such as Gib, Snipe Dales or Covenham Reservoir in the morning. Also, it might be day out for the rest of the family/ friends.

I thought the previous two events at the Admiral Rodney were good, but a bit too short and sweet.

Belatedly , I have today blogged a partial report (the guest speaker's talk) of the 2014 AGM at
www.thewryneck.blogspot.co.uk
Author:  Andrew Chick [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
The LBC Forum was made 'members only' after an AGM vote by the membership. The vote was held after a question was raised at the AGM (over 5+ years ago). The main reason for the question was after defamatory comments were posted on the forum by anonymous forum member (using anonymous logins).

It was agreed by the committee and the membership that the LBC Forum should be made members only. In addition to making the forum members only, it was decided that all accounts should be linked to the members real name. (This allows the recorders to extract records from the forum and verify them against the members name for the LBC database AND this also resulted in an immediate stop to the defamatory comments).

At the time I believe this was the correct move.

However, I personally would now be in favour of opening up the forum again to non-members as this would allow us to gather more records. If a decision to do this was agreed, I would expect that all forum members must use their real name. Additionally, the forum software could be set to allow the administrators to indicate which forum members were LBC members or not, it could also limit access (e.g. only allow non-LBC members to post in some sections and/or reply to certain messages).

I will propose that this is discussed at the next LBC Committee meeting and suggest a trail is setup with feedback to all members at the next AGM? I believe the next committee meeting is in November. If you have any comments, please either reply to this topic, email me direct or contact the chairman.

Finally... when I get access to a ftp account I will upload a copy of the latest constitution.

Andrew
Author:  Roy Harvey [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
I am really surprised that more of the people using this forum do not join the Lincolnshire Bird Club.
For an outlay of about 25 pence a week there is not only full access to the forum, but members also receive a free copy of the annual Bird Report. It is excellent value for money!

Roy
Author:  Stuart Britton [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
I couldn't agree more, Roy. With regards to Andrew's proposal for the next Committee meeting I agree in principal. I accept that records from non-members are desirable and I also agree that they should have a restricted access to all the Forum. Just out of interest, can non-members post their photo's on the Album?
Regards,
Stuart
Author:  Andrew Chick [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
In reply.....

Roy,
The cost of membership can be an issue to some people. However, there are (many) other reason why some people feel they do not want to be a member of the bird club, and making the forum available to non-members will not change this.

Stuart,
The photo album was originally setup outside of the LBC website. When it was a stand-alone site, anyone could join. Since the sites have been combined this legacy has remained. Is this a problem?

Finally...
You only need to look at how many people read each topic to understand that the LBC Forum is a resource used by many people, clearly not all members of the LBC (in Sept 2014 we had 21,501 visits to the site and a quick check of the bird information section shows that each post is opened on average 446 times). Many people planning a birding trip to Lincolnshire this weekend will be looking at the LBC site to get detailed information on what is about etc.. Not everyone who accesses the site wants to be a member and certainly there will be some people who will never want to be a member or have any reason to want to log in.

Is twitter the future?
Will the forum survive the arrival of twitter? The LBC twitter feed (set up less than a year ago) now has 550 followers, clearly not all members of the bird club...many people are now using this to get instant information ......it may be a next generation ‘thing’ for some users?

And.. getting a little off topic…
When I was LBC chairman I quickly discovered that it isn't possible to keep everyone happy all the time. There are always people who will be unhappy at the way the club is run, and no matter how much effort you make will never want to join. The motivation for me has always been the bird records and production of the annual bird report. A resource used by conservation and planning organisations for the conservation of birds in Lincolnshire – for me this is why the bird club exists.

Andrew
Author:  Roy Harvey [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
Andrew

Whether or not the forum is opened up to non members I feel that we should be doing all we can to encourage users to join the Lincolnshire Bird Club. The club was in existence long before the forum came on the scene and will continue after its demise.
The production of the annual Bird Report is financed, by and large, from the LBC members subscriptions and the more members there are the better. Most people are paying more for their monthly broadband service than it would cost for a years membership of the LBC.

Roy
Author:  Jim Wright [ Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
1) I agree with Roy Harvey about membership – the more the merrier!

But it would surely be unrealistic to hope for many of those birders who live outside the county to join up. If they travel all over the UK, not many would be able to afford membership of the club in every area they visited.

However, out of camaraderie with fellow birders, a lot are only too pleased to post records or contribute to discussions.

For instance, if I was luck enough to see a flock of hoopoes imitating the feeding behaviour of curlews on the mudflats at Morecambe Bay (admittedly unlikely), I should certainly report it to the relevant club in Lancashire. :D


2) In my experience, it is the exception rather than the rule for message boards to insist that those who submit posts must reveal their identity.

Ideally, contributors would be happy to do this, but quite a few are shy, reticent or whatever. They prefer to remain anonymous.

Because anonymity is currently not permitted, they don’t submit posts to the LBC site. As a result, the message board is diminished. :(

Just because someone prefers to remain unidentified does not mean he/she is a mischief-making troll!

The administrators will always retain the right to delete the account the registration of someone who posts defamatory or abusive messages. But they shouldn’t be too strict - a bit of cut-and-thrust adds to the liveliness of debate.

3) I haven’t yet twigged why Andrew C and Stuart B favour retaining “limited access” to non-members of LBC.

What is the rationale for creating separate classes of contributor?

Why go to the time, trouble and expense of building and maintaining a message board, only to then hobble it with restrictions and red tape? [-X

4) If it’s not too complicated a task, would it be possible to tweak the LBC website to have an introduction such as the one on this site:
http://www.lancasterbirdwatching.org.uk/

5) In case anyone is interested, I have blogged an interview with Bill Oddie and a report on Steve Lovell’s entertaining talk on the birds of Extremadura (in Louth on Friday) at:
http://thewryneck.blogspot.co.uk/

6) Have a good week’s birding, everyone! =D>
Author:  Andrew Chick [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shouldn't diversity be encouraged?
As promised (some time ago...sorry for the delay!) I have uploaded the LBC Constitution to the site at http://www.lincsbirdclub.co.uk/Articles ... n_2007.pdf
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