The Lincolnshire Bird Club

trev,you could be right,looking again in the 3rd pic,its definitly kite species,going back towards black ,as id expect more of a fork for red,but depending on flight mode,it can alter, on the right hand birdi just feel the wingshape dosent look quite right,rather slender looking,the tail is twisted,its hard to tell on these photos as they are too dark,the tail fork disappears when tail is spread on kites,im not convinced hes had a black kite,more likely a windup.
also black kites have six fingered primaries projection,red-5.thou this on relooking is not easy to discern on these pics.Its difficult ,as they are not good images.still say hes winding us all up to prove some point.
rog.

Oh dear...

I'd trust you to identify a kite in Lincolnshire now...

only joking

only going on the photos,nothing else,to be honest i dont give a toss what anyone thinks of my abilitys either way,if you have faith in your own abilitys why bother what others think??as caterine tate says"Im I Bothered???"and to be honest we have all fallen into the trap gpc wanted to,yapping on about it,lets delete all our posts and pretend we are not Bothered!!!!!

Graham - perhaps you could enlighten your audience before this becomes too tiresome.

Thanks,

JB

Firstly apologies to anyone who takes this whole exercise the wrong way it was meant to prove a point which I feel is justified in the context of spiralling Black Kite claims.

Secondly I did not put the bird out onto any Bird Information network but I understand that some of them picked up on this post and put 2 and 2 together--that is their responsibility.

Thirdly the photos are genuine, no tampering, and were as taken on the day in question as the 3 birds came over me from off the Wolds. The light was poor (part of the point being made) as the birds were into the sun and a bland bright white sky.

Fourthly can Roger tell us who he met between the Tuesday and the Wednesday which so amply swayed his opinion???? as several local birders did know the ID of the bird

So what was the point?
Since the early 90's when studying photos submitted to BBRC of a claimed Black Kite I have been convinced that there is a real risk of mis-identifying a 2cy Red Kite in April and May as a Black Kite; Proportions of 2cy birds are to quote Dick Forsmann show less extreme proportions than adults; ie wings are shorter but more importantly the tail is shorter and when it has been subjected to 9-10 months wear the tips can be very worn as can the primaries. In fact the spread tail can look just as square as a Black Kite see eg plates 48, 50 and 59 and 60 in Forsmanns book.

The shape of Red Kites is typically a give away with the longer tail and longer hand with this being narrower than Black Kite where the wings tend to be more parallel edges (Forsmann); as Roger has been looking up the ID in Forsmann he has managed to point out that the 5 fingered primaries is also diagnostic but not always easy to ascertain in a flight view especially on a gliding bird when the primaries are closed.

In the UK the number of wandering 2cy and immature Red Kites must have increased several hundred fold in the last 15 years as the introduced populations have increased so the chances of seeing one of these birds in spring, when they are typically expelled from adult territories prior to the breeding season, has increased tremendously--this period of movements also coincides with he period when most Black Kite records occur as spring overshoots and it could be said that birders are more aware of the possibility of seeing a Black Kite in spring than in say November-February.

In summary this bird was a Red Kite and it was accompanied by two straightforward Common Buzzards. I have placed another two shots in the discussion forum which show the same birds at the same time.

This certainly makes the case well for an immediate recall for Black Kite to the list of official rarities.

Looks like at least one of the Norfolk birds has the wrong ID then.

The North Creake bird is a Black Kite...


Graham do you actually have any decent pics of your kite which aren't taken in to the sun? Your bird shows an astonishingly similar moult pattern to the North Creake individual.

Roger, the point of my post was just to wind you up, injecting a little bit of the old humour. Chill out

composite image of the Black Kite that flew over Cley on the 22nd April 2007 (S. Gantlett), same North Creake 29th April (David Hatton) and Barton (GPC)
http://www.lincsbirds.co.uk/album/displayimage.php?pos=-5650

cf: http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~charlie/redkite_wales12jan05/kite05.jpg

This whole debacle has been very confusing, it was obvious it was some sort of exercise, and Graham has some nice points to make about Black Kite id pitfalls but unless he saw it in different light when it changed colour, gained white inner primaries and lost a finger then this is the Creake Black Kite.... the hand and tail lengths are identical contra the earlier email.



[JG per msn: "P6 is as long as P3, would be much shorter on Red, and P7 forms a clear finger, which would only happen on Red if P8 was just growing and therefore much shorter. Not the case here...]

_________________
Dr Alexander C. Lees
Lecturer in tropical ecology
Manchester Metropolitan University

Lab Associate
Cornell Lab of Ornithology,
Cornell University

http://www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm
@Alexander_Lees

My answer to gpc,if i think what he is asking,ive met no-one to sway me,had a few beers in the system helped me think black kite(along with dick forsmans bk at hand),but i do not wish to get too deep in this as these photos do not help me enough.
good id points by graham,worth remembering,my black kite and dave johnsons for that matter was in september.
Seems now to be a difference of opinion on this sighting.interesting.oh and josh im chilling out now

just to reiterate for Roger's benefit, the pattern and spacing of primaries and secondaries is almost identical on all the images, suggesting that they are almost certainly the same bird (bear in mind the extra 20 days of moult) and without doubt a Black Kite. This bird has shown a strong degree of site fidelity coupled with some long-distance movements (similar to that shown by the lineatus earlier in the year).

_________________
Dr Alexander C. Lees
Lecturer in tropical ecology
Manchester Metropolitan University

Lab Associate
Cornell Lab of Ornithology,
Cornell University

http://www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm
@Alexander_Lees

good man!

Thanks Alex for producing this. As you say, GPCs bird is surely a Black Kite. James has his the nail on the head with the primaries.

just to add to the conflict a local chap I met on Monday, the day I saw the kite, prior to me mentioning the sighting, reported he had seen a pair of Red Kites for the last week on the Wolds just above Barton---which would rule out the Norfolk bird is it was one of these IF they were Red Kites but then again one has been seen today!!!!!! so if the rain clears I will try and get some more photos tomorrow!!