The Lincolnshire Bird Club

Once again, we have the " you just don't understand, stupid " approach to those who dare rock the boat and confront the pro-cull advocates. In the headlong rush to discredit those with an opposing viewpoint, the perpetrator inevitably misreads what has been written. The whole thrust of my post, and a difficult point to misunderstand I would have thought.....but never mind, was that wholesale slaughter of a species when NOT supported by public opinion is a dangerous path to tread. I can't imagine for one moment any public opinion not in favour of the eradication of rats on Henderson Island or the actions on Tristan.

Further, the dangerous, tasteless and totally unnecessary introduction of the point comparing controlled eugenics re humans vis-a-vis animals/birds - and one I studiously avoided - is an unfortunate development. The linguistic fact is, of course, that the term "eugenics" is usable in any applicable context and it certainly doesn't have a unique connotation....solely to humans.

Apparently, certain phrases can get certain people ' angry ' even in a healthy discussion of opposing views, but I would suggest that such a reason is no real excuse for the computer keyboard rapid response to take precedence over the brain engaging gear......I mean, how can an already relatively weak yet hopefully reasoned argument be supported by reference to " a pretty blue bill " or to those opposing speaking " complete drivel " or not having " an ounce of sense "......supported with great difficulty, one would surmise.

On the other hand, it is the relatively strong public opinion with its " common sense " that may yet see the cull lose its momentum and, hopefully, be reconsidered before it's too late.

Freddy

OOHHHH WELL PLAYED SIR, carved away to the boundary for four, wot a shot, you win my vote freddie, watch out for the devious spinner, sometimes a straight bat is required !!!!

terry whalin

and by the way mr french i find your remarks both smug and patronizeing that anyone dare have a different opinion to you and fail to recognise the difference between a nice blue bill and a rat, the slaughter or cull by its fancy name is abhorrent to most of the rspb members that i have met

terry whalin deputy group leader grimsby rspb

But NOT abhorrent to the RSPB! This from the article referred to in PF's posting:

RSPB position
The RSPB welcomes the European Commission’s support for efforts to eradicate ruddy ducks from the UK. We commend the high priority for action the UK Government is giving this issue, and are facilitating the eradication project where possible.
Difficult as it is, our position is based on lengthy and careful consideration of the detailed scientific research carried out into this issue. We are faced with a stark choice: either we act to stop ruddy ducks spreading from the UK, or we stand by and watch as the white-headed duck is pushed ever closer to extinction. Taking this action will help secure the future of the white-headed duck, while the ruddy duck will continue to thrive in its native North America.
Habitat loss and degradation, and hunting, continue to pose a major threat to the white-headed duck and it is important to find solutions to these problems. However, failure to tackle the spread of ruddy ducks in Europe could condemn the white-headed duck to global extinction. We have no wish to see the white-headed duck become the first European bird species to become extinct since the founding of the RSPB in 1889.

And I also agree with them.

John

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Lincolnshire Birds https://www.flickr.com/photos/120340949 ... 8078912016
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Contact: recorder_north@lincsbirdclub.co.uk

Let us not forget though how many native species are killed to preserve the pheasant, an introduced species, so that those who can afford it can get their sport. A whole industry in this case is partly dependant on the destruction of those native species.

David

Sorry, John, but it appears that this time you don't get the point.

When you say that the cull is " NOT abhorrent to the RSPB " you really mean " Not abhorrent to the decision-making committee officers of the RSPB HQ at The Lodge, Sandy Beds." .....a decision they may yet come to regret.

Terry Whalin, and a number of other LOCAL RSPB officers I have met - including RSPB LINCOLN - find the cull abhorrent, as do countless RSPB members or, should I say, former members.

Finally, despite the overtly carefully worded statement you quoted re " We have no wish to see the White-headed Duck become the first EUROPEAN bird species to become extinct since the founding of the RSPB in 1889 ", one would have thought that by now the Ruddy Duck itself can be considered an ipso facto European species, despite American origins and introduction(by escape). By extension, therefore, it looks as if the RSPB Directorate is in favour of sacrificing one European species, which happens to live and breed in Britain, to ( European ) extinction in favour of a Spanish duck that NEVER even visits Britain......many will say 'a typical committee decision', supported, of course, by the fixated taxa specialists.

Freddy

[quote="Paul French"]Eugenics and ethnic cleansing!?!?

I'm sure the survivors of the holocaust, Sudan and the former Yugoslavia would love to have their history compared to this. [quote]
Agreed Paul, anyone who watched the distressing programme on News 24 (Sunday night) about the siege and massacre in Srebrenicia would fail to see the comparison.

Well that's the point about democratic institutions - they represent the views of the membership or, you rely on the appointed body to carry through a raft of decisions which approximate to the views of the voters. I haven't heard of a mass resignation from the RSPB so I'm assuming that the majority of members don't find the process too appalling and are willing to bite their tongues for a greater good.
The problems caused by intros in this country, are almost intractable but not always damaging as is probably the case with Little Owl but extremely damaging in the case of the domestic cat (do I hear the sound of a can of worms being opened) which kill a minimum of 350,000,000 wild birds each year and countless mammals. The Ruddy Duck falls somewhere between these and its damaging influence is beyond these shores, which is no reason to ignore it. I think the impact of all intros should be assessed and dealt with appropriately. This is not solely a British problem or decision. The UN (Article 8(h) of the UN's Convention on Biological Diversity), and the EU (Wild Birds Directive) also consider the eradication of the Ruddy Duck to be necessary and its eradication in the Western Palearctic has been called for under the Bern Convention.
I can't consider this as a native European species from its original escape from Slimbridge around 1960 any more than I would the Mink which has been around considerably longer. The Horse Chestnut has better credentials but it's only been here since 17th century.

john

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Lincolnshire Birds https://www.flickr.com/photos/120340949 ... 8078912016
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Contact: recorder_north@lincsbirdclub.co.uk

I have chosen to adopt a novel role (for me) on this thread as a mediator. It will continue to attract argument and counter argument because there are two totally opposite opinions. I don't think there is a need to get personal about other's opinions - the subject has been well aired, moved from another part of the Forum and should now be allowed to finish.

Indeed, Stuart; and my opinion will be stamped on my next R.S.P.B. renewal date.

Richard.....

well i shall not resign from rspb where i have been a member since 1973 and payed a fellowship for more years than i care to remember, agree with them or not, they are the best we have for people who wish to contribute to conservation and this, what i consider is a stupid stance should not overshadow the fantastic work they do elsewhere. a subject such as culling a species should even if the rspb agreed with it be met with a stony silence and let defra get on with it without the megaphone declarations by its employees to people whom they rely on for wagers. on my travels spain hungary and the like the white headed duck has a healthy population and surely we could have left the culling to the other side of the channel where they engage in these pastimes whether it has a pretty blue bill or not. if anything annoys people more than the subject of the cull itself it is to be talked down too or lectured on there so called ignorance of a subject, diplomacy at its greatest from a public sponsored body. the discontent with the rspb viewpoint on this cull goes to a very high level within the organisation and i know those same people never reports sightings of that pretty blue billed thing and the county recorders that also do not record it. SHOTGUNS AND TOES come to mind

terry whalin

well i shall not resign from rspb where i have been a member since 1973 and payed a fellowship for more years than i care to remember, agree with them or not, they are the best we have for people who wish to contribute to conservation and this, what i consider is a stupid stance should not overshadow the fantastic work they do elsewhere. a subject such as culling a species should even if the rspb agreed with it be met with a stony silence and let defra get on with it without the megaphone declarations by its employees to people whom they rely on for wagers. on my travels spain hungary and the like the white headed duck has a healthy population and surely we could have left the culling to the other side of the channel where they engage in these pastimes whether it has a pretty blue bill or not. if anything annoys people more than the subject of the cull itself it is to be talked down too or lectured on there so called ignorance of a subject, diplomacy at its greatest from a public sponsored body. the discontent with the rspb viewpoint on this cull goes to a very high level within the organisation and i know those same people never reports sightings of that pretty blue billed thing and the county recorders that also do not record it. SHOTGUNS AND TOES come to mind

terry whalin

Posting the same message twice won't make your arguement more persuasive Terrence!!

Quite, and it won't make me an employee of rspb either. Haven't been for a little while now, but then getting facts right clearly isn't that important. As soon as a convincing case based on evidence is presented that ruddy ducks present no threat to white-headed ducks (which incidently has turned up in Britain on a number of occasions, but I guess that's another fact that Freddy likes to overlook), then I would very quickly change my opinion. But since those against the cull cannot present that evidence, and their entire argument is based on emotional conjecture, I see no reason to agree with them. I also suspect that public opinion would depend on what question you asked, and how it was phrased. My guess would be that most people couldn't care less either way, while those that could would probably be against a cull. That would still only demonstrate public opinion, not what is the right and responsible thing to do. Anyway, this debate is pretty pointless considering the cull is nearly finished.

sorry my computer has a stutter !!!!
i think it is very important to talk about these issues, the depth of feeling might go some way to make sure it does not happen again, not flippantly dismissed as though public opinion does not matter, thats what dictators do ( comrade ) and they usually come to a sticky end. its usually arrogance that brings them down, those that do not listen to public opinion do so at their peril

terry whalin

The White-headed Ducks that turned up in the UK were probably escapes anyway but, unlike the Ruddy Ducks, avoided being shot.

Having said that, and only because I was referenced subsequent to my agreed silence - and before the pro-cull case becomes even weaker - I really think it is high time for us all to abide by Stuart Britton's suggested Peace Accord.......before we bore even more members to death.

Freddy