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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:27 am 
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another comparative photo of Red and Black KItes in similar fligth poses from Spain now in the discussion album---I have also done a bit of work on one of the original kite photos which I have posted --it is still pretty poor due to the light and poor exposure but it maybe shows a little more detail in the plumage


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:58 am 
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an all round apology is in the process of being written and I must admit to being sick as a parrot to have made this cock up but I suppose it may justify taking photos rather than looking at the bird but there again if I had looked at it longer I would probably have identified it right in the first place---anyway thanks to Alex and BLGP for pointing out the fact that the primary wear is very similar to the Norfolk bird--I have mounted a copy of my bird and the Norfolk bird's left primaries and it looks pretty incontrovertible (just waiting for permission to post the pic)---it makes a good tracking record for this individual and possibly indicates that multiple sightings of raptors around the country could, as in this case, refer to rather less birds than have been assumed in the past;

We all make mistakes and I hope it has sharpened up my birding --- maybe the camera will stay in the bag for a few days!

Could this though actually be a British first---claiming a Black Kite as a Red rather than something else as a Black Kite!


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:07 am 
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Good for you Mr C , it takes a lot of guts to admit mistakes in public.

Trev


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:50 am 
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I second Trevor's sentiments as regards Graham's honest posting. A valuable lesson to all of us though. The natural tendency is to wish a common bird into something better. Perhaps, because we have this in mind, over caution can creep in. If someone with GPC's knowledge and experience can do it it makes me positive that we've all missed some goodies !
Terry W.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:44 pm 
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I heartilyy agree with the last two staements.

John

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 Post subject: Black Kite
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:25 pm 
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Firstly I accept that I have made a rather large error on the ID of the Barton bird so this is not an excuse for what was a case of sloppy birding but a summary of the event and what I consider to have been the thought process which went wrong!

During the present spring I have been out virtually every day walking in excess of 250 miles on birding trips round the local patch and doing breeding bird surveys along the Humber and on inland heaths. The result of all this effort had been the discovery of a single Wood Warbler and three Ring Ouzels; hardly a good result and I had got into the mind set that I was unlikely to find anything this spring.
Monday 21st seemed little different with Far Ings producing the expected zilch and local waders only including a single Sanderling as a suggestion of some movement. When I glanced up to the quarry above Far Ings and saw three large raptors drifting over the ridge I assumed they would be buzzards or maybe the local Marsh Harrier and some buzzards. The birds were against a bright white sky but as they banked it was clear that one was a kite, long looking wings and a longish tail with a shallow fork; as it banked around it showed a really striking pale covert bar on the upperwing and this immediately said Red Kite to me thinking that Black Kite has only a poorly developed pale covert bar. Although I have seen 1000’s of Black Kites the last trip when I saw about 80 was in Spain in May 2003 since when I have seen only one in winter in the Camargue apart from the Black-eared Kite of course, so my memory of the species was somewhat distant. I had not really looked at the photos of the Norfolk bird on the net and had overlooked Stuart Piners composite shot on Rare Bird Alert gallery which shows how striking the upperwing covert area was on this individual. http://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/RealData ... =4&pos=45&
The bird I was watching was drifting north-east against the light but I decided to get some record shots and set up the camera with 2x converter as the birds were so far away; having shot off a few very small images a Landrover approached and I had to move all my gear off the track wasting vital seconds in the limited amount of observation time available. The bird drifted closer but as they did so were directly in line with the sun so I couldn’t even look at them at this point but when they emerged from the sun I took a few more pictures before they started to move directly away from me when I at last looked at them with my bins; the scope was in the car! As the kite flew away towards the Humber I could still not get any colour on it but it still never occurred to me that this was because there was no red to see! Looking at the photos I realised that even though they were terribly under-exposed and against the light the bird did look rather like a Black Kite in profile but in life it struck me as being very long winged and long-tailed which convinced me I had got it right and it was a Red Kite after all. I think the apparent wing length was due to the fact that it spent much of its time gliding with the wings bowed right down from the arm to the tip; the tail seemed narrow at the base and one outer feather seemed a little longer than the other side suggesting wear.
So why then did I not think of Black Kite in the first place having seen 1000’s and several 100 Red Kites as well? All I can suggest is that several factors may have affected my line of thought; I was not expecting to find a rare bird and especially a rare raptor on my local patch; there had been several recent reports of Red Kites this spring and I had even missed one which flew past behind me while I was in the hide at Far Ings so I was almost expecting a Red Kite to appear; my lack of recent experience of the species failed to alert me to the key ID features even though I saw them!; and finally the frequent forum statements on the abundance of Black Kites in the UK probably had an opposing effect convincing me that they were not common and this bird proved it! [In actual fact the tracking of this individual around several sites in Norfolk and then through North Lincs, possibly to North Yorkshire and back down the Lincs coast proves the point that the species is not as common as statistics may suggest but that one individual can account for a multitude of records which in the past would possibly have been recorded as 5 or more individuals in BBRC statistics].

So no excuses and I guess the moral of the story is don’t be complacent; look harder at all birds but the question of whether to look or photograph is still a vexing one. Had I not reached for the camera I may well have got better views of the bird and identified it correctly in the first place but if I had continued to think it was a Red Kite and did not have the photos then a good record would have been lost; the images appear to confirm that it was the same bird as the Norfolk sightings and that in itself is useful in a British context so sacrificing views for evidence may have had a productive outcome but I would certainly admit that I wish I had looked at it longer in hindsight!

GPC


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:43 pm 
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I am the one that usually makes ID mistakes and it is nice to see that some of my observations on this bird have been accepted.

GPC
Quote:
anyway thanks to Alex and BLGP for pointing out the fact that the primary wear is very similar to the Norfolk bird


I pointed this fact out early on in the discussions, I am not sure why GPC chose not to look at the images concerned earlier as others could see the similarities I mentioned.

Also perhaps Josh may now except that my earlier comment makes sense.

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If you look at all the recent dates & sightings in North Norfolk they could all be the same bird not lots of Black Kites.


And also Josh my comment:
Quote:
Looks like at least one of the Norfolk birds has the wrong ID then.


May just have had a bit of sarcasm in it.

All's well that ends well.

Russell


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:52 pm 
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Russell Hayes wrote:
I am the one that usually makes ID mistakes....

I thought that was my department.....


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:08 pm 
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I am not sure why GPC chose not to look at the images concerned earlier as others could see the similarities I mentioned.

well Russ I could give you a run down of my weeks programme but maybe Tuesday -Wednesday will give you an idea---Tuesday up at 02:30, breeding bird survey to 12:00hrs, working 14-22:30 when I went out doing a Nightjar survey 23:00 until 09:00, had 3 hours sleep, went to work 14-22:30 etc ---some people have too much time!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:20 pm 
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GPC wrote:
I must admit to being sick as a parrot


Graham

I don't suppose you'd like to identify that parrot more specifically?

John

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Following JRC's light hearted theme could I suggest Red faced Parrot (Hapalopsittaca pyrrhops) or perhaps Vernal Hanging-Parrot (Loriculus vernalis). It couldn't be a Norwegian Blue as that species shuffled off it's mortal coil many years ago.

Perhaps Imperial Parrot would be most appropriate given GPC's stirling rarity finding record.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:11 pm 
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in my younger days the African Grey at the Fleece at North Coates did some excellent renditions of such old faves as I love you because and it used to come out with some cracking wolf whistles when any young lady walked in from its hidden position at the end of the bar! it also had the added distinction of grabbing the nose of one of of our friends when she got a bit too close to its cage


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 Post subject: Mistakes
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:39 pm 
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A well written report by GPC!

I came to field birding late in life, and have only been doing it for seven years. Since this time I have mis-identified quite a few birds and taken lots of stick, the latter annoying me intensely. In future when I mis-identify any birds I will think on about this episode with GPC. To think someone with the experience he has can still make a mistake, gives those of us with less knowledge food for thought.

Although I have a tripod I rarely use it with the scope, for birds in the sky I prefer to hold my scope with both hands, getting a much better view than those who are looking with bins. Never seen anyone else do this. But then there is only one Max! :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:20 pm 
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Russell Hayes wrote:
IAlso perhaps Josh may now except that my earlier comment makes sense.


Ite Russell. I never said your comment made no sense. In fact, I concurred - GPCs bird was indeed the same as the North Creake bird, as you suggested due to the primary wear.

Judging by reports from Norfolk however, there have been at least two Black Kites in Norfolk on the same day, for various reasons.

I'm mystified by your comments! Please explain!


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 Post subject: Kite
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:47 pm 
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Josh,

My comments were to do with the number of Black Kites not the fact that it was a Black Kite.

You said
Quote:
must be a fair few around in Norfolk atm..


My point was based on the movement of the Kite. It was not beyond reason to assume that a lot of the sightings in North Norfolk could have been the same bird. I looked at the list of sightings and could not see where two sightings were made on the same day at the same time from different locations.

You now say
Quote:
there have been at least two Black Kites in Norfolk on the same day

Does this show a shift from "a fair few" to "two"?

I agree that if you have information that shows different, then there may be more than one bird.

I hope this explains.

Russell


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