Would have thought Andy & Deano have seen plenty and heard plenty of Greenshank, think you are taking the mick
, you got to much time on your hands Graham ...
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| Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. http://lbcarchive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15133 |
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| Author: | Andy Sims [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Myself and Dean Nicholson had a Marsh Sandpiper fly around Boultham Mere calling at 12:30 today before flying off high to the West. We were momentarily fooled into thinking it was a Greenshank but the very long leg projection, small size/thin wings and call all quickly put us on the right track, we initially put the news out as a 'probable' as we were unaware of exactly what Marsh Sand sounded like but when I got home I played the call of Marsh Sand down the phone to Dean and it just confirmed what we both already knew. The pits along the Trent might well be worth checking? Interestingly the Blacktoft bird hasn't been seen today, draw you own conclusions. |
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| Author: | Hugh Middleton [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Well done Andy. Saw it on Birdguides and presumed/hoped/ wished it was you. Just reward for patchwork methinks. Hugh |
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| Author: | Graham Catley [ Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
calls of all the related tringas can be very similar eg from Collins Guide Lesser Yellowlegs rather high pitched clear tew often uttered singly, sometimes 2-4 notes in quick succession and same pitch; voice a mixture of Redshank and Marsh Sandpiper Great Yellowlegs flight call three syllable whistle very like Greenshank but sometimes seems liveleier and slightly higher pitched third syllable peu peu pew Greenshank call is a powerful tri-syllablic whistling tyew-tyew-tyew all on one pitch -- juv often with shrill voice Marsh Sandpiper flight call kyew with diphthong or kyu-kyu-kyu like Greenshank but quicker and higher pitched |
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| Author: | Andrew Chick [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Message from Dean Nicholson (received 6th Aug 2011) Graham, Both Yellowlegs sp were eliminated before we even heard the bird call as we had both seen the white panel extending up the back, it really did boil down to just either Greenshank or Marsh Sand, we were certain it wasn't a Greenshank pretty early on by very long leg-projection more than anything else, but also the small size and faster flight action on thinner wings, the head was very pale and the bill was long, straight and very thin. The call was also something of a clincher as neither myself nor Andy had EVER heard a Greenshank utter a single note of that same tone before, As you quite rightly state tringa flight calls can and do vary, we were well aware of this hence our early caution and neccesity to hear several samples of Marsh Sand (AND Greenshank!) calls before confirming the news 2 hours later. It's now tempting to suggest it was the Alkborough/Blacktoft bird seeing as it had moved from there during the previous evening (although we didn't know that at the time of the sighting). We are both now in the process of submitting the record to BBRC- although we have reservations about submitting a description of a National raity without a photo but we still feel we have got more than enough to eliminate all confusion species. we'll see what happens..... Regards Dean |
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| Author: | Roy Harvey [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
A very well put together response Dean. As mentioned previously, I for one, would be delighted if you were to again become a member of the Lincolnshire Bird Club; your dedication, expertise and enthusiasm would be an even greater asset to the county birding scene than it is currently. I aready receive more rarity descriptions from you than from anyone else in Lincs. - the vast majority of which are accepted, and long may this continue. Regards, Roy |
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| Author: | Graham Catley [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Andrew Chick wrote: Message from Dean Nicholson (received 6th Aug 2011) Graham, Both Yellowlegs sp were eliminated before we even heard the bird call as we had both seen the white panel extending up the back, it really did boil down to just either Greenshank or Marsh Sand, we were certain it wasn't a Greenshank pretty early on by very long leg-projection more than anything else, but also the small size and faster flight action on thinner wings, the head was very pale and the bill was long, straight and very thin. The call was also something of a clincher as neither myself nor Andy had EVER heard a Greenshank utter a single note of that same tone before, As you quite rightly state tringa flight calls can and do vary, we were well aware of this hence our early caution and neccesity to hear several samples of Marsh Sand (AND Greenshank!) calls before confirming the news 2 hours later. It's now tempting to suggest it was the Alkborough/Blacktoft bird seeing as it had moved from there during the previous evening (although we didn't know that at the time of the sighting). We are both now in the process of submitting the record to BBRC- although we have reservations about submitting a description of a National raity without a photo but we still feel we have got more than enough to eliminate all confusion species. we'll see what happens..... Regards Dean Interesting that the call sounded so different to GK -- I heard the Alkborough bird call on two occasions, probably both in alarm rather than potential contact, and noted it as a tew tew tew repeated in three call sequences, not really dissimilar to GK but maybe slightly higher and shriller; When ND had the bird on the 21st it was with 6 GK and all were calling but he noted that the call was not strikingly different on that occasion as well -- could that suggest that your bird was different to the Alkborough bird on call alone (a very brave suggestion) but there was also a report in Northumberland the same evening I recall -- to check out just how different recording of the same species can sound try the following link http://www.soundeffects.ch/surround-sou ... tagnatilis) http://www.xeno-canto.org/europe/XCspec ... nr2=617.50 the song of the one below seems a little different! http://wn.com/Marsh_Sandpiper_Stenåsa_ör,_Öland,_Sweden The latest position of BBRc re non-photod birds is clearly set out in a recent BB which in brief states that as pre digital photography good descriptions of rare birds are still just as acceptable as those that are photod so there is no bias |
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| Author: | Graham Catley [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Just for reference I have posted some flight shots of GK autumn ads and juvs and Marsh Sandpipers adults in April from Cyprus in the discussion album -- |
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| Author: | Dean Eades [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Would have thought Andy & Deano have seen plenty and heard plenty of Greenshank, think you are taking the mick , you got to much time on your hands Graham ...
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| Author: | Stephen Routledge [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
While observing the Alkborough bird at Blacktoft,i noted the call heard on 2 occasions as being a slightly higher pitched 'Tew tew' as it took flight,when flushed by gulls,when compared to Greenshank,of which there were also present. Regards Steve. |
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| Author: | Andrew Chick [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Reply from Dean - (6th Aug 2011) I watched the Blacktoft Marsh Sand last Sunday evening (the 31st) for about 2 hours and despite all my efforts failed to hear it call once even though it regularly flew around- both flushed and of its own accord. Perhaps interestingly i commented in my notebook after viewing a Marsh Sand at Abingdon sewage works in Oxfordshire on 4 Aug 2007 (note the coincidental date!) "frustratingly quiet-not heard to call at all when flushed, unlike the Greenshank with which it associated which called its 'tyyu tyyu tyyu' call everytime it flew and even on a few occasions whilst on the deck" Would this suggest that vagrant Marsh Sands are generally not as vocal as Greenshanks? or have i just been unlucky? The fact that the BM bird did not call at all until just prior to its departure struck us both as rather odd, it could be argued that because it was alone with nothing to call to could explain its reluctance to call, although that same rational certainly can't be explained away by lone Greenshanks which are seemingly always vocal. I watched a couple of Greenshank with interest at Huttoft pit yesterday and was surprised at just how different they appeared, obviously larger/bulkier with broader bases to the wings and quite a different flight action, more jerking and erratic as they banked round (I likened the fast and direct flight action of the BM bird to that of a Turtle or Stock Dove). As can be seen in GPC's flight shots of both species, the bill of Greenshank is thicker based and obviously upturned, this can clearly be seen in the field even at a surprising range (have a look next time you see a Greenshank!) the 'dainty' long rear ended look of Marsh Sand (emphasised by the long leg projection and small head/thin straight bill) actually gives it quite a distinctive 'back-heavy' jizz in profile, and (in my opinion) not too difficult to identify if seen well, certainly not like claiming something like a Semi-P in flight! Dean |
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| Author: | Graham Catley [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Dean Eades wrote: Would have thought Andy & Deano have seen plenty and heard plenty of Greenshank, think you are taking the mick , you got to much time on your hands Graham ...If and when you have anything of interest to add to identification discussions I am sure we would all be keen to read them otherwise I am sure there are other forums where your comments would be more appreciated. |
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| Author: | Richard Gunn [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Surely Dean's reply was compliant with LBC Forum rules; conversely, Graham Catley's elitist posturing and absence of humour is unfortunate. Richard.... |
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| Author: | Stuart Britton [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Let's not let yet another healthy discussion on bird i.d. develop into a slagging match! GPC has a proven record through his time on the BRC and Dean is a handy photographer. Let's all try to work together on this excellent Forum. |
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| Author: | Dean Eades [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
Valid point Stuart, but I was not aware Andy & Dean was after identification discussions. I have complete confidence in Andy & Dean ability ... Great find lads ... |
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| Author: | Terence Whalin [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Marsh Sandpiper 04/08. |
nicely put stuart,  i did not comment because i can be as subtle as a bull making love sometimes, note i only said sometimes,  terry whalin  
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