The Lincolnshire Bird Club

Nocton Black Kite - an interesting question.............

I understand the Black Kite was still showing very well this weekend. Doesn't it seem a little bit strange that its still there..........However, not wishing to start another 'classic' Black Kite Forum debate, here goes!

I got this email today from Phil Palmer......... anyone else got any more recent images of the bird. When I saw it a few months back it was just starting its mount?

I went to see the Nocton Kite yesterday & to me it seemed VERY unusual.
I suspect it is a hybrid Red Kite as I have seen thousands of each.

I have seen Black Kites that are rufous-looking below but this is amazingly bright on the upperparts. It also has rufous feathers on the rump & an extremely grey head with Red Kite feel to it.

As a result I took some photos as I am not aware of any such hybrids.

Also as a non member, I suspect that I cannot post any messages on your site but suspect that you may wish to alert them to this suspicion.

Regards

Phil Palmer

This is the most recent pictures I could find;



Russell Hayes 12/10/07



Steve Botham 7th Oct 2007

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Andrew Chick
Website: http://www.forktail.co.uk/

It would be so FUNNY if it turns out to be a hybrid, lots of red faces all round.

This could prove to be educational or could just decline into uninformed comments; I am not sure what a Red Kite head feel to it means? are they not very similar about the head; but then as 100's ? of people saw this bird in Norfolk and photographed it and the pictures have been published and 100's if not 1000+ people have seen it in Lincs why has it taken so long to raise a discussion? because it should now be in Africa? it is the only really long staying autumn bird ever in the UK etc; I have put a few photos from October 17th in the album.

Lets have some sensible discussion please

The reason its took so long is no one dare say anything, from day one i was the only one that said it did not look quite right, but you all know that cause most of you was told what i said but it was just laughed off as usual, and no one would talk about it apart from saying its a Black Kite cause so and so said it is.
At least now some one else has voiced a view.

OK so what does not look quite right? can we be a bit more specific rather than vague?

Oh Steve... you always sound so bitter

You were not the only one. I voiced my concern to a number of people suggesting it might be a hybrid Red x Black back in July. However, I must admit I quickly gave in to popular opinion with all these reports of it being Black etc etc. I have seen well-marked birds abroad, and so was inclined to agree it was just a variant Black. Several others I have spoken to also admitted it does look 'odd'.

repeat---what and why? lets make a discussion not just all jump on the I told you so bandwagon

Graham, I'm not jumping on the bandwagon - merely stating that a point has been raised here that I had a conversation about back in July.

Structurally, the bird doesn't seem quite right - I can't find any measurements at the moment. It seems to have the elegence of a Red Kite though. Additionally, the extent of the rufous tones is surely out of range of a typical Black Kite - look how red the shoulders are in the perched images, and there appear to be rufous tones in the back and the neck. Facially, the bird looks quite Red Kite-like. The tailed might also be a little too forked for Black but this is subjective.

Consequently, the sightings from Norfolk and of course Water's Edge (where Graham may well not be all that wrong with his initial diagnosis of it being a Red(ish) Kite!) must be taken in to equation as these relate to the same bird.

Check out this rufous Black Kite from Extremadura...

http://www.billbaston.com/sitebuilder/i ... 74x424.jpg


Discuss!

I could be one of the very few people on this forum not to have seen this bird so I can only comment on the photographic evidence provided here.

A quick look in Raptors of The World indicates that with Black Kites the wing tips are nearer the tail tip than in Reds. This shows well in Steve's photo. Apparently in WPal juvs can look rufous enough to be mistaken for young Reds. Where are the white wing panels of a Red, they seem to be quite dark suggesting Black.

A personal thought; are hybrids possible? Is there any published scientific evidence for us to read which would indicate they exist.

Adi

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/46984194@N00/

I am also one of the fewpeople on this forum not to have seen the bird, and if I ever DID see it, I'd still probably mis-ID it as a pigeon......

To answer Adi's question re possibility of Red Kite/Black Kite hybrids, see link.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotlan ... =734912007

Good find Roy. I should have thought that the young from that pair would have been marked, at least with a conventional BTO metal ring and perhaps with others such as colour rings or a wing tag. Is this bird ringed? Must admit that Steve Botham's pic of the perched bird does not look like your average Black Kite - there does seem to be anunusual amount of 'red' in the plumage.
Come on GPC, don't stay sat on the fence, let's have your analysis.

I have emailed the Scottish Red Kite project to request more details - e.g. if they were wing tagged or ringed etc...

I'll let you know

Regards

Andrew

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Andrew Chick
Website: http://www.forktail.co.uk/

I understood the photos of this bird has already been looked at by Dick Forsmann who came back with the comment that at least the brightness of underparts were well within the range of black kite. See comment in birding world May reports. If it were a hybrid it would be expected to have some red kite features. If so where are the pale panels in the underwing. The structure also looks compact and not long winged/tailed as in red kite. I'm not saying the bird does not have any red kite genes, I'm sure all black kites have some. If it looks nothing like a red kite why should it be a red kite. Personally I would go for black kite as I have pics of many black kites which look very similar to the Nocton bird, I will post a couple tonight for comparison.

As for the fact that its still there, is a bit odd. However, this is not unprecidented as this species is becoming more common on the continent in winter.

On the other hand, besides the possible escape hypothesis, as said above probably more likely would be the accidental intoduction as part of the red kite introductions which have been sourced from Spain. I'm not sure of the collection method but, even if there was not a direct misidentification of the adults at a nest. Could it not be possible that an occaisional black kites egg is laid in a red kites nests? This is pretty common for a range of species, I used to regularly find pheasants eggs in partridges nests. This method of introduction has more or less already been proven, as it must be more than a coincidence that the long staying black kite in scotland a few years ago , now breeding, seems highly likely to have been accidently introduced as part of the kite into programme in scotland, Whoops! Incidentally photos of this bird look quite similar to our bird, maybe another pure bird who knows?

Kev

Wished id gone to see this bird now!!as ive seen a couple in lincs ive never gone thinking it would not hang round also,the tail does looked a little bit more forked in some photos than maybe should be?I agree with Gpc ,lets gather everything we can and take it from there,get mr forsman to really have a good look again especially..
Rog.