The Lincolnshire Bird Club

For reactions and comments regarding the initial sighting at Ram Farm on Mon 16 July 07 refer to
LINCS BIRD REPORTS - page 9

Regards,

Freddy

It's perhaps not too surprising that the Kite has hung around for so long. It has found an area which must have a lot of prey knocking about, judging by the amount of Buzzards and Marsh Harriers that have been present when I have visited a couple of times.

Will

Hmm - interesting stuff guys.

Someone on birdforum has decided to suggest that this bird could be last winter's Black-eared - god knows why. For starters, it looks nothing like the Black-eared (I saw that in March at Dersingham, at which point it was almost in pieces and looked nothing like the bird in May).

Who knows, this bird might move south in the next couple of weeks and, as Kevin says, they seem to be more and more regular in winter in Europe these days, so nothing overly unusual about that...

I'm really not sure about this bird - some photos seem to show the bird to be very brown (esp some of the older pics) and much like one would expect of a typical Black Kite. However, some then show it to be much more rufous. I saw the bird a couple of weeks ago but alas it was quite silhouetted and distant so my own views aren't overly useful.


Keep discussing please, most interesting.

I haven't seen the bird so can't comment, but if it has regular perching posts is it worth checking for fallen feathers for dna analysis?

The original posting can be found at - http://www.lincsbirdclub.co.uk/forum/vi ... php?t=5922
Andy Sims original comments are worth a look.....

Andrew

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Andrew Chick
Website: http://www.forktail.co.uk/

Just a couple of observations from someone who hasn't actually seen this Kite :
As pointed out above, Red Kites have a proportionately longer tail than Blacks. Consequently their wing tips fall well short of the end of the tail. The photos seem to support Black Kite on that score.
Secondly, the flight photos appear to consistently show 5 spread primaries (although tatty, this bird does not appear to have dropped any of its primaries). Red Kites show 6 primaries most of the time. This feature would support Black Kite.

Having said that, I've no idea what the structural features of a Black x Red Kite hybrid would be (although definitely not 5 1/2 spread primaries!)

Phil

not wishing to pre-emp a reply I cannot believe that the Scots would not have wing tagged the juvs from the hybrid pair and followed their dispersion it being such an amazing event and the nest having been monitored;
I am working on a suitable discussion but it needs some thought! It is maybe though an interesting observation on the habits of bird watchers? nowadays that a really rare bird has been on the doorstep of several birders for 4 months and yet there are no detailed observations of its moult strategy, no field descriptions of the bird other than photos? which can lie especially with regard to colouration (something which I find to vary dramatically in digi-scoped images from personal experience, even between subsequent shots) and no write up on the bird's habits etc; most people just seem willing now to see, accept ID and tick and move on--a real shame.
Just an observation in July it had dropped p4 & p5 but it still seems to have retained p6 - p10 ? have not had chance to look up moult stategy in age classes of BK or RK as yet

OK
lets make a start; bare parts

Bill: from Steve's photo I think we can state the bill is black with a sharply contrasted bright yellow cere--the iris is brownish? but not obviously pale

from Dick Forsman's book:

Bill; Red Kite Cere yellow, bill in juvenile grey with dark tip and yellow base and gape; bill paler in adult, often largely yellow with diffuse grey tip-----Iris adult pale yellow to whitish in adult

Black Kite Bill black contrasts sharply with yellow cere (cf Red Kite); Iris dark brown in juvenile turning pale brown at approx 2-3 years of age and finally to pale yellowish-brown in adults 6-7 years of age

Conclusion: bare parts best fit Black Kite

Moult: Black KIte complete annual moult ; starts to moult flight feathers during breeding season but moult suspended for migration and completed in winter quarters

Red Kite: annual complete ; starts in April-May and is completed late autumn after migration---outer primaries may be retained and moulted in winter quarters;

this seems to offer little hope

wing to tail ratio on perched bird as pointed out surely favours Black Kite

Plate 62 in Forsman looks amazingly similar in plumage tones to the Nocton bird but it is labelled as an adult---is the Nocton bird an adult, 2cy or older? this may be key to the correct ID? Looking at the bases of the undersides of the outer primaries they appear to be dull and barred not with the brighter whiter bases noted in Forsman for juvenile feathers so does this mean it is not 2cy but older?

still looking for any detailed reports of hybrid kites but nothing useful as yet

Graham - I assumed this bird to be older than 2CY based on the photos available - it certainly looks more adult like.

A search of birdguides reveals photos of the same bird in Norfolk from earlier on in the year - worth a look.

Re Phils thread, Red Kite shows 5 and Black shows 6, so the other way round.
Birds of Middle East Shirihai
Red is long winged and long tailed giving it an elegant slender appearance with distinct slimmer longer body, Red usually has clearly narrower hands and 5 prominent fingers, black shows ample hand and 6 prominent fingers.

Does anyone have Bill Oddie's e-mail address? He'd know....

As promised a couple of black kite shots on my blog in direct comparison with the Nocton bird. To me they look remarkably similar. Nice bright rufous underparts.

http://www.kevindurose.co.uk/

In comparison to field guides all of these three birds are very bright. I should point out I didn't select these, they are just the ones I got closest to. Isn't it the case that black kites are shown to be blacker than they really are just to make the ID look more straight forward In field guides. Once the mistake is shown in one field guide it tends to follow on from there into the next book. Another example of this is, little bustard (males anyway) have greyish white eyes and not red as is shown in most field guides (Bird of Europe and subsequently in collins I'm sure its in others too). Same with black kites which look very dull in field guides BWP included.

To me this kite looks to be a typical black kite in plumage, as well as compact short winged/short tailed structure. Size is also similar or slightly larger than buzzard, right for black kite. Red kites are noticably larger than a buzzard. See on my blog, May posting? for direct size comparison with a buzzard. [/url]

It also says intermediates between nominate and lineatus occur in E Europe and east wards and can be overall reddish, these are often seen over Israel and mistaken for Red Kites, has any one seen these type of birds over Israel? is this bird from further east. Could it be an interbreeding migrans-lineatus that would account for the rufous tones, and pale head .
If lineatus can make it here why not an inbreed from the wide interbreeding zone between the two.


Also these birds over israel only show 5 primaries
From Forsman, Black is known to have hybridized repeatedly with Red in the wild.

Hand-reared released juv Black Kite it is then.

Adi

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/46984194@N00/

Dont know which planet p hyde is coming from,but he is wrong!!!i quote dick forsman"in silhouette by long and parallel-edged wings with rather broad tip(usually six prominent fingers)-thats for Black Kite,five for red kite!!-has anybody checked this part of the id criterea when observing this particular bird?
Regards,
Roger.