The Lincolnshire Bird Club

I havn't seen this bird at all, but just a word of caution about the ageing of raptors (and other large birds in general actually).

I'm reliably informed that fieldworkers in Scandanavia now do not and cannot accurately age White-tailed Eagles. They now just stick to juvenile, sub-adult and adult. In fact, my same source has told me that Forsman himself has learnt shed loads since writing his book, and has proved himself wrong on a few things (not sure exactly what though!). Still, its by far the best we have, and hopefully he'll do an update soon.

The same goes for gulls, now its been proved by ringing recoveries that Herring Gulls can retain signs of immaturity long past what we would have called 4th winter.

Just a note that it might not be worth pinning to much hope on accurately ageing this bird, as a) it might not be accurate, and b) it probably wont tell us very much anyway.

Another word of caution has to be fact that its very risky trying to judge plumage tones from photographs. In russells perched shots the bird looks very warm toned, the same is also true of Steves shot on a pylon. One thing we have to be careful of is colour saturation in these photographs. For sure Russels shots (point and shoot camera) will have in-camera processing that bumps up the saturation levels well above actual levels. The same might also be true of Steves shot depending on whether he has taken a RAW image or JPEG. If Steve has taken a JPEG colour saturation and contrast will both be boosted. To be honest normally I increase sauration when processing my RAW images. The pic link below which I posted in July was a RAW image which has been converted to JPEG and has had the saturation slightly boosted (manually)during the conversion from RAW to JPEG. This pic doesn't look particually warm on the upperparts to me, acknowleged the pic was taken on a cloudy day.

Secondly the brightness of a photo as adjusted in photoshop will also obviously either make the kite look darker or lighter depending on how far the exposure slider is moved.


http://www.kevindurose.co.uk/2007_07_01 ... chive.html

Steve/all,
Have you looked at Kev's comparative shots with two Black Kite photos he took in Spain? I personally can't see why this isn't just a Black Kite, to be honest I haven't seen any satisfying arguments for it being a Red x Black Kite (nor do I think it is a migrans/lineatus 'hybrid').

I think Grahams detailed look at the bird show this bird to be a pure Black Kite and Kev's photos show to be nothing too unusual.

I think its important to realise that if this bird was a Red x Black then it would show some Red Kite plumage and bare parts features, which this bird does not (no more than Black Kites usually do anyway).

cheers
Will

The following information from Derick Evans,

From our position and at a great distance, the bird looked extremely long winged and flew very gracefully. Driving around to get a better view of the bird, we of course expected the long reported Black Kite. When it appeared directly above us and very close, my first thought was great views at last, my second was how Red the body and really pale the head was, almost Red Kite-is.
As it hung in the wind then slowly flew away from our position, elegantly banking from side to side it showed the diagnostic, diagonal wing patches as expected.
Though at first sight a rather uniform upperwing. The upperwing coverts seemed strangely Reddish-brown at times.
At rest (On the floor) the wing tips easily reached the tip of the tail. The tail was not as reported at all too forked for a Black Kite but facially, the bird could be said to look very Red Kite-like to me.
It was also noted more when at rest that the shoulders seemed brightly pattered for Adult Blk. Kite, with contrasting darker feather centres. is this unusual for Blk. Kite?

In flight, while expecting the upper wing of a black kite to appear more uniform than red Kite. On the Nocton bird the median upperwing coverts had a distinctly contrasting and Rufous pattern, which was often visible from far away. Black Kite should/would appear more uniform.
Phil took several pictures and I have looked through the Dick Forsman's Raptors of Europe & Middle East. Jury still out.

Derick Evans

_________________
-----------------------------------------------------
Andrew Chick
Website: http://www.forktail.co.uk/

The following reply is from the Scottish Red Kite Project

Hi Andrew

Your query about hybrid Black/Red Kite has been forwarded to me in Inverness as I was the person responsible for recording this event in 2006 in Highland Region.

A male Black Kite had been annually visiting the Highlands since 2002 and first made a breeding attempt in 2005 with a Red Kite but failed. It usually turned up in April and stayed until August when it presumably migrated to traditional winter quarters in Africa. In 2006, it appeared again in mid-April but it wasn't until late June that I found it mated with a wing-tagged 6-year old female Red Kite with a nest containing 2 large young. Both these were ringed and wing-tagged and they fledged successfully in late July. They were not seen again and I assumed they had migrated like their father.

However within a couple of months, it soon became apparent that the experimental method used in 2006 for attaching the wing tags to the wing using a pin and spring stud (similar to pin badges) was a total failure as several radio-tagged young Red Kites appearing at communal roost during the autumn were found to have lost both wing-tags. Lost tags were found on the woodland floor below the roosts. We now assume that all the young kites wing-tagged in 2006 have lost them as none have been seen since last year.

So what I am saying is that the absence of wing-tags on the Lincolnshire bird does not rule out the likelihood of it being one of the Highland hybrids. The presence of a leg ring would raise the possibility that it is a Highland bird. Furthermore, the presence of a pale head of the individual photographed, does suggest that this bird is at least in it's second year and therefore, possibly born in 2006. Lots of ifs and buts - it all depends on the leg ring and the number on it!

Wouldn't it be marvelous if it was one of the Highland hybrids?

Thank you for contacting us and good luck in your quest.

Brian

_________________
-----------------------------------------------------
Andrew Chick
Website: http://www.forktail.co.uk/

So if I do get to see it I can have two ticks for one bird.
Incidently the UK400 Rare bird alert report for 30th Oct. says that the dubious Black Kite is paired with a Buzzard! Is this correct?
Geoff

Don't listen to a word the UK400 says - its all crap and speculation.

Through out its stay its also paired with a Marsh harrier, sat close to each other in a field, grappled with an Hobby does that count, or its just a Gay Black, Red Black Kite.
PS this is a joke.

The tail was not as reported at all too forked for a Black Kite



Was he looking at a different bird?

an the lack of a BTO ring rules out the chance of this being one of the Scottish birds (cracking story of falling tags though)

I will repeat my submission again,has anybody got close enough to count the six prominent fingers which according to mr forsman a black kite usually has?
Regards,
ps,the photo gpc shows appears to have five!!!
Roger.

Check out smurfbirds rare for photos when this bird first arrived in Norfolk for your answer....

Will

I could be wrong but I think p1 is still growing here? the shots have gone to a higher sphere now so we await further definition.

Conceeded!!still does not answer my main question abot the lincs bird,
regards,rog.

What was your main Question, i forgot

Birddog, please stop going on about 6 fingers this was established back in May. The bird has been in active moult since then. See my link which I have supplied before, below and count for yourself. As Will and GPC have said, no one has put forward a convicing arguement for the bird being anything other than a black kite.

Four reasons why this bird looks to be a normally plumaged black kite

1. Tail is not too forked for black kite

2. bird lacks even a hint of pale window in underwings, actually less than on most black kites.

3. breast/belly is exactly the right colouration for black kite

4. structure/flight action appears to be right for black kite.

Could it be possible that some folks have seen a juv red kite????

Can someone supply 1 reason why this is not a normal black kite and we can investigate.


http://www.kevindurose.co.uk/uploaded_i ... 782905.jpg