Bird Photography - My last Contribution

Trevor Gunby · **Posted:** Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:27 pm

This may be my last contribution to the Forum so I will try to explain why - not easy as it seems that I am forbidden to mention specifically what I am talking about!!
I recently posted some pictures to one of the Photo Albums and a few days later they were removed. I received an e-mail from the website administrator saying that since I didn't have a licence "YOU are breaking the law and could be reported to the police." He also e-mailed Birdguides and asked them not to publish photos submitted by myself and others because we did not have Natural England Licences to photograph these particular birds.
I have looked at the Natural England website and it appears to me that a licence is only required when one needs to "disturb birds at the nest or near the nest for the purpose of photography". I know that in my case (and I am pretty certain that it applies to all other photographers) photographs were NOT taken at the nest nor were they taken near to the nest and there was certainly no disturbance to the birds - it therefore follows that there was no need for a licence nor any valid reason for not publishing photographs providing one followed the accepted procedure of not disclosing the actual site details.
Some of the reasons I am sure that the birds in question were not disturbed are as follows:
a. Along the long side of lake is a public footpath, which is very close to the water's edge, and this is also a farm track which is used by farm vehicles.
b. The lake is used for fishing and anglers frequently drive along the track and park very close to the edge of the lake to carry out fishing activities.
c. A farm track (which is not a public footpath) runs close to the opposite side of the lake.
d. A road for the use of quarry traffic runs past and close to the shorter side of the lake and there are active quarry working nearby.
e. RAF jets frequently fly fairly low over the site and these can generate quite an enormous amount of sound.
In spite of the above the birds appear to have returned to the site for a number of years now. I have to ask if they can put up with all this aggravation and keep coming back is the occasional click of a camera shutter (at some distance because invariably long telephoto lenses are employed) going to frighten them away? I would add that the photographers I have seen at the site invariably take every precaution to minimise disturbance even knowing that all the abovementioned activities do not seem to concern the birds.
I have received a further e-mail from the administrator in which he gives me some quotes from other Club members (who are not named) and I quote from one:- "i get pissed off with the efforts i have put in, in the past getting licences/permission when i have needed to and then others that dont bother." If I were to sink to the level of this individual (which I don't intend to do) the I reckon I would be justified in telling him to "p_ss off" and not to make judgements on the actions of others when he is not in posession of any of the facts relating to the case. Perhaps he would come forward and, for the benefit of other Club members, specify precisely which licences and permissions are needed at the sight in order to take photos which are not at or near the nest and do not cause any disturbance to the birds.
It appears to me that following the posting of the photos in question to the Album several members of the Club not only accused me of illegal activity but carried out their own trial and found me guilty without ever trying to contact me (my e-mail address is easy to find on the Club website) or to obtain any facts relating to the circumstances. I don't believe that I, or any of the other photographers, have comitted any offence and I would be quite happy if the Club, as suggested by the Administrator, were to report us to the police. I know who would finish up with the red faces!
Anyway I don't feel that it is acceptable for Club members to try (as in take to court) and convict a fellow Club member of a criminal offence without a shred of evidence and without any communication with the "accused" especially when there is no case to answer.
If members wish to behave in this despicable manner then I have decided to post no further photos to the albums and I have asked the Administrator to remove all photographs which I have contributed in the past so that in future the nasty element of the Club have nothing to complain about. I also don't intend to make any further contributions to the Forum after this and I will not renew my membership when it expires.
I will be sorry in some ways to leave the Club but I cannot carry on being a member of an organisation where some members are prepared to behave in such an irresponsible and undemocratic measure. I thought the days when one could be accused of an illegal activity and convicted without evidence or the chance to offer a defence had long gone - not in the Lincolnshire Bird Club it seems!
If anyone wishes to say any more on this matter I would be interested to hear their comments.
If not I will say goodbye and be off to seek more congenial pastures in which to pursue my hobby.

Trevor Gunby

Dean Eades · **Posted:** Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:37 pm

Its a real shame you are leaving the forum, someone must have been very busy sending e-mails out especially if he or she had sent them to all !!! I do believe you have done nothing wrong Trevor.

I think common sense should apply here, please carry on posting Trevor, if everyone that as taken photos at this site stopped posting there would be very few posts going on the Forum, and whats a Forum without posts ?

PS. Wasn't one of the album thumbnails previously this bird in question with 2 chicks ? the mind boggles !!!

Geoff Williams · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:35 am

I'm sorry your pictures have been removed from this website, infact I can't seem to find any photos of the species in question in a search,unless I've done something wrong. I see there still on birdguides.
I'm also pleased to see the birds have bred OK as I wrote to the Lincs bird recorder about the disturbance by fishermen and didn't expect them to be successful.
It's a pity Lincsbirders.freeforums.org don't have a photo section on their forum as I'm sure you'd be welcome there.
Geoff

Alastair Carr · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:33 am

Yeah it is a real shame, especially when people don't know the law, even though it is 400 years old, some of it.

Dean Eades · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:10 pm

It would be nice if some of the Photographers who have visited this site and taken Photographs of these Birds make some comments, or is it the same old story lets sit on the fence. COWARDS SPRINGS TO MIND ??? SURELY ONE OR TWO OF YOU COULD MAKE A COMMENT considering there were about 30 Photographers who have visited and photographed these birds.

Trevor Gunby · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:48 pm

Thanks for the above comments - some of you obviously know what I am talking about even if I am not allowed to say! Perhaps I can bore you with a few further relevant comments.
Let me say that I am fully in favour of the legislation to protect birds, whether Schedule 1 or otherwise, and that I am quite happy for the legislation to be properly enforced. A lot of people will know that I obtain satisfaction from photographing birds, and where appropriate sharing the photos with others, and clearly it is in my interest to see that birds are protected or I might lose the opportunity to photograph some species.
Perhaps I can give another quote from a member which was given in support of the Administrator's decision to ban my pictures: "they are a Schedule 1 species and IF no licence is given then they shouldn't even be photographing them, we don't make the rules, just follow them". Now the thought crosses my mind that if one is to set oneself up to follow (and apparently enforce) the rules then it would be a basic requirement to have a full and thorough knowledge and understanding of the rules. It would also help to have an understanding of some of the basics of English justice eg the accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty and it is not right to accuse someone of a crime without some evidence to support the accusation!
It appears to me that it is the policy of the LBC to keep secret the location of some rare birds and not to even mention their name on the Club website. It seems that this is to avoid the information falling into the wrong hands. I believe that this policy is flawed. I think that egg collectors and the like will have their own ways of finding out about the sites of rare birds. To me it would appear that the more people in the LBC that know about the site the better. A regular flow of visitors who are bona fide birders would not disturb the birds (as I mentioned before they are already subjected to farm traffic, quarrying, anglers, aircraft noise etc) and would act as a measure of policing - they would deter the human predators and could report any suspicious activity. If Club policy is to keep everyone away from the site then surely this leaves the door open for those who are up to no good.
Similarly I cannot really see the need to ban the publication of photos of some species. Surely if the pictures are taken within the rules and site details are not given then there can be no harm done. At least those who cannot visit the site and may not see such birds in a lifetime would get a chance to see what they are like. Seems a pity to deny them the pleasure because of a badly thought out policy made by a few.
Do these thoughts make sense to anyone or am I living in a dream world?
I do get the impression that there are some in the LBC whose aim in life is to deny others the pleasure of watching birds instead of encouraging them which ought to be the aim of the Club. To those people I hope you enjoy your "victory" in driving me out of the Club and I hope you derive some twisted sort of satisfaction from your actions! I hope that in future when you try to ride roughshod over other members they tell you where to get off.

Trevor Gunby

Geoff Williams · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:48 pm

I agree with everything you say. I wrote to the Lincs bird recorder saying exactly the same thing but didn't even get a reply. It appears that these birds are known nationally judging by some of the photographers mentioned on the web.
Lincolnshire people should be proud to have these birds breeding in the county and should display them to the world.
Geoff

Mandy West · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:17 pm

Trevor,

We agree with everything you have said. We havent had the time yet to photograph these wonderful birds but we will in the next few weeks. If we had have got pics we would have posted them and said, as you did undisclosed site. Does this mean we cannot now post photos of Barn Owls, Bitterns, Marsh Harriers, Kingfishers, Avocets or any other Schedule 1 bird?
We agree also with your point about the more people know about birds whereabouts the better re policing the area ( a few examples - Rutlands Ospreys, Red Kites in Wales, Choughs in Cornwall etc), these places are always full of people enjoying the birds(not just a select few)

The birds and the site in question seems a well known fact, in the last few days we have spoken to a few non LBC members who actually told us about them.!
We had a posting removed for reporting a Schedule 1 bird, despite the fact that on the site in question, the info board clearly states the fact that the bird breeds there!! This is true also of a number of rare birds where info is freely available via RSPB and Wildlife Trusts websites and books.

Mick

Dean Eades · **Posted:** Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:54 pm

We must not forget this is a Private Site, when of the footpath !!!

Andrew Chick · **Posted:** Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:35 am

Please note on every page of the photo album is the following simple statement:

â€œThe Lincsbirds photo Album does not encourage images of rare birds taken at the nest or with young - a copy of the appropriate licences must be available, otherwise your image will be removed.â€

Having carefully considered the facts, I had no choice but to remove Trevor Gunbyâ€™s images from the photo album. I wrote to Trevor and explained why I was removing the images, based on the above statement.

If anyone feels that I have acted inappropriately in removing these images then I guess they should contact the Bird Club Chairperson or the County Bird Recorder to make their views known.

If anyone feels they wish to contact Trevor directly rather than on through the Forum, then his email address is trevorgunby@aol.com

Andrew

Trevor Gunby · **Posted:** Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:52 am

Thanks for the comment, Andrew but is someone missing the point here. As I pointed out in my original post I have looked at the Natural England website and get the understanding that a licence is only required where the photographer intends to "disturb the birds at or near the nest". I certainly agree that birds should not be pictured at the nest but as I pointed out all the pictures in question have not been taken at or near the nest and photographers have not caused any disturbance to the birds. I cannot see any requirement to have a licence to photograph a bird simply because it is young whether it be Schedule 1 or otherwise.
How often do people drool over a picture of a baby Avocet - are they comitting a crime?

Alastair Carr · **Posted:** Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:44 am

I think what Andrew's saying is that there are stricter rules on breeding birds on the photo album than on the Natural England licenses and he is saying that there are obvious Schedule 1 birds that can be posted, because of the number of breeding pairs in Lincolnshire. For instance, the Barn Owl may be posted, because of the number and what state we see the birds, i.e. we see Barn Owls hunting, whereas we see Black-necked Grebes on the nest.

I am saying that there is stricter rules on breeding birds on Photo Album than on Natural England, but there are relaxed guidelines on Schedule 1 birds.

Does everybody see where I'm coming from?

Trevor Gunby · **Posted:** Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:42 am

Thanks for that Alastair. I can see the point that you are trying to make but I cannot understand why the LBC should try to impose stricter rules than Natural England who appear to be the governing body on this subject. Incidentally I have not seen the birds that we cannot mention on the nest and I don't think that anyone has or that they are even aware of the precise location of the nest. I think that most birds, if not all, are concerned that they can nest away from prying eyes and predators and neither I or any responsible birder would attempt to approach the nest of any bird, Schedule 1 or otherwise, knowing that any disturbance at the nest would harm the chances of raising young. The birds are only seen on open water away from the nest site and I believe the young are brought out into the open only when the the parents feel that it is safe to do so and that they will come to no harm. I think that the birds in question probably continue to return to the site mainly because they feel they can have a secure nest site and secondly because they have a secure food supply. Once the young are old enough to be "out and about" it seems that birds feel secure out on the water and are not perturbed by all the human activity going on around about having found that it does them no harm. I will have more to say on the matter later when I have a bit more time, Sorry to keep going on about the subject but it does seem that an important section of Club policy is at stake here which does affect many members of the LBC.

Trevor

Chris Grimshaw · **Posted:** Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:33 pm

I took photos of these birds at the same site last year and there were fishermen very close. If the photos had been any good I would have posted them in all innocence. No where on this site that I have seen is there a list of Shedule 1 birds

I can understand some of the sensitivity but this site is the worst kept secret in Lincolnshire

I suggest you carry on posting your photographs and entertaining the rest of us

Trevor Gunby · **Posted:** Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:07 pm

Having re-read the post from Alastair I am becoming more confused about activities within the Club. It seems that the LBC are not content with the rules laid down by Natural England, presumably to make sure that everyone is on a "level playing field", but they have made extra rules of their own to make the LBC out of step with the rest of the country!. Not only have they made their own rules for Schedule 1 birds but they seem to have made different rules for different birds. Apparently you can photograph one species at a certain site but if the bird is to fly off across the road then it is against the rules to take a picture because it is no longer in a warden controlled site - the mind boggles! How are we humble members to know what we are supposed to be doing when all these extra rules have been made and as far as I know members have not been made fully aware of what these extremely complex rules are. Would it not be sensible for the LBC to abide by the rules laid down by Natural England and keep in step with the rest of the country? That way we would all have a chance of understanding the rules and there would not be silly incidents like the LBC writing to Birdguides and asking them to remove pictures of a particular species where photos were taken in Lincolnshire because publication of these photos did not comply with the LBC internal rules! As far as I can see Birdguides are not doing anything wrong in publishing the pictures - there are now more than 250 photos of the species on their website and I don't know of them receiving any complaints (nor are they likely to because they do operate to a strict code of practice). Wouldn't it make sense for the LBC to operate to the same rules as the rest of the country rather than make its own very strange rules and expect the rest of the country to abide by them?

Mick and Mandy raised a very valid argument about the birds which must remain a secret in the LBC when pointing out how wide publicity had helped several once very rare species to survive and flourish. Perhaps I could mention a couple of other examples nearer to home. Last year we had the example of the Montagu's Harriers at Digby Fen. The RSPB kept a discretionary lid on information until the young birds had fledged but then gave wide publicity to the birds, set up a viewing site, and invited all and sundry to come and see them. As a result many hundreds came from all over the country to experience the sheer joy of seeing these magnificent creatures. People were encouraged to photograph the adults and the young and the RSPB would even point out the precise location of the nest. What harm came to the birds? None at all - they flourished and the world is now a better place for the addition of three or four Montagu's Harriers and many people are richer for the experience of seeing them and no doubt some have become converted to helping with the protection birds. Sounds great but according to what I have been told recently the LBC would view this as an illegal action - they would have kept the site secret and who can tell what effect this would have had on the chances of survival of the young harriers. Another case in point, involving Schedule 1 breeding birds, is the Peregrines at Lincoln Cathedral. Again loads of publicity, lots of visitors to the city, and people encouraged to look at and photograph both adult and young birds. Again in the eyes of the LBC a completely illegal activity even though many people have benefitted from the experience and the birds have come to no harm - indeed what egg collector would venture near the site after all the publicity.

I think Geoff is right. We should make our rare species into stars and be proud of them. Give them plenty of publicity, encourage visitors to Lincolnshire, allow as many people as possible to enjoy the beauty of the birds and give the birds added protection by the regular presence of those who appreciate them. It worked in the above examples and no doubt the RSPB would provide advice and assistance if asked. The alternative Club policy of keeping the site secret and preventing genuine bird enthusiasts from seeing the birds seems to be courting disaster because it ensures the maximum opportunity for egg collectors and the like to get to the site and do their damage. As has been said by some secrecy cannot be imposed in any case because a lot of people already know of the site
and you can bet your bottom dollar that egg collectors and those bent on harming the birds are amongst those the know.

Trevor Gunby

The Lincolnshire Bird Club

Bird Photography - My last Contribution

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