The Lincolnshire Bird Club

I can see where you are coming from. I was thinking to myself lately, if I get footage of a rare bird, which I have not seen before, and only see it through a digiscope, can I count it? What happens if it was caught on camera, but at that point I was looking away? Do I have to see it live through a digiscope to tick it off? What's the difference between a digiscope and a normal telescope?

In reality, I know down under, that I do have to see it live, in the field, not over the internet, etc. Through twelve or two lenses, it doesn't matter.

I think that all of us have different views on things and we have to do what the boss says!

Sorry if this offends you Trevor....

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Alastair Carr

Where there is a will, there is a way....

I guess it is about time to wrap this up as very few members seem to be interested one way or the other. Over 500 seem to have looked at the posts but only very few have bothered to express an opinion and though those who have responded seem to agree with the points I have raised it is still very disappointing.

Many will know that all pictures of the birds concerned have now been removed from the Birdguides website as well as the LBC albums. The birds are now a "secret" and can sleep easily in their nests (or are the egg collectors rubbing their hands with glee as they read this?). I have been told recently of another pair of rare birds in Lincolnshire, last year, whose location was kept secret - the result was that the nest was shot out and no doubt the policy of secrecy designed to protect the poor birds only protected the culprit. I don't want to worry anyone unduly but I have seen spent cartridges quite close to the site of the rare birds we have been talking about. From what I hear some of the gun carrying fraternity don't care too much what they shoot at and wouldn't know a rare bird if they saw one.

Anyway I have done my best to argue a case for a better way of dealing with the birds in question and trying to keep them from coming to any harm. Very few people seem to care and so I see little point in continuing to fight for their survival.

The person who told me "YOU are breaking the law, and you could be reported to the police" hasn't yet explained which law I was breaking nor has he apologised for making a false accusation. The person who was "pissed off" because I hadn't got the necessary permissions/licences hasn't yet come forward to explain exactly what permissions/licences are required so that other members don't fall into the same trap!!! This will, I expect, be my last post unless there is very good reason to say any more on the subject. There seems to be no good reason to continue to be a member of the LBC when my current membership expires as I am not prepared to suffer the attitudes which I have just outlined and when my enthusiasm for the protection of birds seems to be met with a general feeling of apathy.

Trevor Gunby

Trevor
Don't be disheartened by apathy. It invades every aspect of human activity (or non-activity). I sympathise greatly with what you've said and whilst it is clearly stated as Andrew has said, though in small print:

The Lincsbirds photo Album does not encourage images of rare birds taken at the nest or with young - a copy of the appropriate licences must be available, otherwise your image will be removed.

nevertheless I find the distinction between acceptable and unacceptable photographs to be so marginal as to be undefinable. A quick trawl through the rare bird section of the album reveals pics of the following Schedule 1 species all photographed during the breeding season:
Avocet
Bittern
Bearded Tit
Kingfisher
Red Kite
Peregrine
Marsh Harrier
Montagu's Harrier
Woodlark
and I'm sure there are others. All of these species have been photographed close to their nest sites. Your pictures were taken, I believe, from a public footpath which is traversed by fishemen, dog walkers, farmers, birders and others. Your only offence seems to have been to point a camera at birds which others can look at and disturb on a regular basis and then - perhaps this is the offence - to publish the photos. I must admit to be baffled by the fine distinctions that are being made in this case.

John

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Lincolnshire Birds https://www.flickr.com/photos/120340949 ... 8078912016
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Contact: recorder_north@lincsbirdclub.co.uk

Theres some nice photos of Black-necked Grebe and young from a site in west yorks on birdguides for June, I wonder if they will be removed?

I am now officially confused (not that it's remotely anywhere near a first time for me) - if I see Avocets at Freiston or wherever, do I now omit them from my reports on here?

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No Katherine - no need to be confused. You see Avocets at Freiston are treated differently from Avocets at other sites, at least some other sites, and anyway it all depends on the time of year. If you are taking photos of the young you must bear in mind that some are too young to be photographed and some are not. I assume that the LBC will issue a list of all Schedule 1 birds showing the age at which it is considered proper to photo the young of each species in due course (I expect the age will vary for each species on the list). Hope this is of some help. If you don't understand then don't worry - I don't think anyone else in the club will know or understand the rules anyway (they have certainly confused me).

Trevor

In response to Geoff's comment I think the answer is no. As far as I am aware the request to remove the Lincolnshire photos was made by a member of the LBC and specifically related to the site we have been discussing. I don't think that the person who made the request was remotely concerned about the welfare of birds outside the county and was probably was not too concerned about the particular rare birds in our county for as I have previously stated the best protection is to have as many genuine birdwatchers as possible in the vicinity.

Trevor

For what it's worth, here is my two pennyworth.

I e-mailed Natural England for some clarification on this subject:



Here is the response I received:



Please note that I have hilighted the words Disturb as I see this to be the deciding factor if any offence has been caused.
As has been said it would need a court to decide whether an offence has been committed merely by pointing a camera and taken a few pictures, disturbance by doing that, I believe would be hard to prove.

The decision to remove pictures from the Album is fair as has been explained, the LBC does not encourage it.

The decision to contact Birdguides and ask them to remove all pictures of the said birds is not one I accept and a letter has been sent to them asking for an explanation.

Later....
I have now had a reply from Birdguides & the LBC Admin and can see the reasons why the decisions have been made.

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http://birdmanbirds.blogspot.com/

Bloody hell trev this is the longest goodbye on record just joking.

Anyway from reading the legalistic bumph it appears that nobody can definately say what is right or wrong on this issue and my sympathies go to all those involved. Everybody involved i am sure has only the best interest of the birds at heart and to try to follow all these grey areas looks to be an impossible task.
I am sure we could argue from individual viewpoints forever so lets try to put it to bed. I can assure you all from personal experiance that egg collectors and the like know more sites for rare breeding birds than ever us mere mortals could ever do and i will say no more than that for legal reasons i am sure you all understand ( proof etc ).
I propose we all kiss and make up er no mascara or lippy involved boys and girls and definately no tongues either.
Lets understand that the admin team have a very difficult job and i am sure that no snub or wrist slap was intended and as a club we cannot afford to lose genuine caring conservationists and conservation is to important an issue to have auguments among ourselves which can only deflect from the real battles. I would not like to see you leave trev, keep on posting because collected records and info is the very life blood of any conservation issue,

cheers and good wishes to all concerned Terry Whalin

Now we've got everything out into the open? Can anyone say how well Marsh Harriers and Bitterns are doing this year. I've been watching two sites and neither seem to have done well,or is it too early to tell?
They seem to be struggling to find food.
Geoff

Thanks, Terence, for your comments. "Kiss and make up" seems like a good idea but not possible in these circumstances. This has been going on for some time now but still the people who accused me of breaking the law and taking photographs without a licence have not come forward to explain what law I was breaking or what licence was required in the circumstances. Since quite a lot of people have been taking photos of the birds in question you would think that it would be important to explain these points clearly on the Forum so that others would be able to avoid the errors that I am supposed to have made. Maybe it is that the people who made the accusations were wrong and I was not breaking any laws or acting improperly by taking photographs without a licence. But then you would have thought that in view of the seriousness of the accusations made a very full and humble apology would have appeared here!

All my photos have now been removed from the Albums (at my request) so that in future no one can accuse me of taking photgraphs illegally.

I had hoped that in due course I could have made a useful contribution to the LBC - my long experience in administration and accounting as well as my interest in birds and photography may well have been of benefit to the Club. However I am still branded a criminal by some and so obviously the Club would not want me to remain a member and I certainly do not wish to remain in a Club where there are members who are allowed to behave in such an irresponsible manner.

Trevor Gunby

I did send a Private Message to Trevor on this subject but received no response. Trevor, may I suggest you contact Nigel Lound (Lincolnshire Police Wildlife Crime Officer) who contributes to this Forum and is an expert on this particular subject. You probably have seen in the past that there are people on this Forum with contraversial views - please do not be put off and continue to make your valuable contribution to recording the county's fauna.

Thanks Stuart but I did not receive your message - I only got your name and something to the effect that the message had been removed by the sender before it could appear (or words to that effect). I do not think that it is for me to contact Nigel Lound for as far as I am aware I have not broken any rules. It seems to me that it is those who accused me of wrongdoing who should ascertain what the relevant regulations are and act accordingly. My big problem here is that there are members of the LBC prepared to bully others on the pretence that they are enforcing laws and regulations when they don't appear to know what the appropriate laws and regulations are and in any case they are not aware of the circumstances surrounding the alleged crimes and so could not be in a position to make a judgement! I can only repeat that I do not feel comfortable belonging to a club where some members are permitted to behave in this manner.

Trevor Gunby

I didn't know the rules on this until now..... the only rule I've used while out birdwatching is 'enjoy nature, respect nature and don't disturb the birds'.

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Well said Katherine. It is a pity that the level of common sense that you display can't be injected into some other members of the club.

Trevor Gunby