The Lincolnshire Bird Club

Messingham Pits.
1 Long-eared Owl
1 Tawny Owl
1 Barn Owl(Hunting along path near duck hide).
15 Mute Swan
14 Cormorant
12 Shelduck
384 Greylag
1 Pink-footed Goose
4 Curlew
No Goshawks,surprisingly!!


Worlaby Carrs
3 Kestrel
8 Common Buzzard
2 juv/1st winter Marsh Harrier
495 Fieldfare
68 Redwing
8 Corn Bunting
9 Mute Swan
1 Short-eared Owl
7 Curlew


Regards


Steve.

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http://www.brachytron.blogspot.co.uk

http://www.LincolnshireOdes.blogspot.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/routy

Same old story Steve,just cos yer didna oggle a gossy dosent mean their was not a genuine sighting previously.

Hang on, isnt this the guy who moaned and moaned at me for being sceptical?

I have oggled a gossy as you put it, today actually,and not just one.But i was merely pointing a fact out that i don't seem to have much luck with the species in this county,but can go to Yorkshire and see 3 differant birds in a day.Iam sure there are other birders in our area who have had the same amount of luck when looking for this species,i will just have to keep my fingers crossed i get one at Worlaby one of these days.Hav'nt done too bad down there this year up to now.


Steve.


p.s. I heard a rumour today, that the RLB i found on 2nd January has been seen in the Worlaby area again, this last week.

_________________
http://www.brachytron.blogspot.co.uk

http://www.LincolnshireOdes.blogspot.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/routy

dont worry Steve only joking - just fuelling the fire, if you like - can't beat the Goshawk debate on these forums...

Indeed, it seems like too long since we last had one. Two questions:

1) Can anyone provide an uniequivocal photograph of gentilis in the county (apart from the trapped bird at Theddlethorpe and any known escapes). Preferably recently, but any old photos would be interesting. That doesn't include distant pinprick images that resolve no detail. Seems like the last proper debate predated the whole Campephilus principalis affair. I'm not arguing that all sight-records are rubbish, just want to know if we have any documented records?

2) Does Graham still need it?

I still haven't seen a Goshawk away from known-breeding areas. Post-juvenile dispersal rates must be really low, either that or they all get shot. It seems that the population in the Dark Peak has been near-extirpated?

Alex

_________________
Dr Alexander C. Lees
Lecturer in tropical ecology
Manchester Metropolitan University

Lab Associate
Cornell Lab of Ornithology,
Cornell University

http://www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm
@Alexander_Lees

In reply to Alex's post,the problem with Goshawk records,(and i may say that it is not just Lincolnshire that has problems with "Rubbish records",i think most county recorders suffer the same as ours),it is the fact that most people who see the species don't see them well enough,therefore in my opinion shouldn't be claiming them at all.The species when seen well is fairly straight forward to me, to identify,it is just these dashing glimpses most observers see of what was possibly a large female Sprawk,and bingo its a Goshawk,id'd just like that from a 30 second glimpse.In my opinion the species has to be seen well to be acceptable.Further to Alex's second point i think Graham has seen Gos in the county,and i look forward to the day when we can have some genuine birds on show displaying for all to see and enjoy.



Regards



Steve.

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http://www.brachytron.blogspot.co.uk

http://www.LincolnshireOdes.blogspot.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/routy

A pair of Goshawks were present during the breeding season from February onwards a few years ago on the Dennis's Estate at Stenigot. John Walker and myself watched them displaying and I saw both male and female in flight a couple of times. I cannot remember the year - John might but he's away in Kenya. I do not think that any young were ever seen. They were viewable from the top of Stenigot Hill. I believe that many birders have watched the area since, myself included, but no Goshawk records. Old Peter Dennis was aware of them and felt it was a just reward for all of the wood planting he had done over so many years - he would have protected them.

Cheers guys, but point 1? Not even record shots? I guess that situation shouldn't remain that way now everyone seems to own a DSLR. I thought Graham hadn't seen a Lincs Goshawk at the time the issue was last raised?

Although Goshawks are 'elusive' I have usually had a high success rate at sites such as Strines/Ladybower (when they were there) and its amazing how the myth of their presence in an area - e.g. the Belvoir area in NE Leics proliferates, such that people see them all the time and they end up making it into County Bird Reports. In the eastern US I have 'twitched' wintering birds which have been highly predictable and easy, I just don't think as Stephen says that they should be thought of as having wraith-like qualities. If they are there then you'll see them. Their absence from eastern England is both a function of their slow recolonisation rate from central and western nucleii, compounded by continued persecution. On the Continent they often make use of urban areas and are not restricted to large areas of forest for feeding or breeding.

I have been living n Norfolk for ten years now and have never seen one, or even been close, a search of the birdguides database yields no Norfolk reports from 2008 at all! There are some uniequivocal records of migrants though from previous years e.g.:

14:57 07/04/03 Goshawk Norfolk Winterton Dunes NNR one in North Dunes mobbing a Marsh Harrier, also 9 Sparrowhawks through, 9 Crossbills

17:33 31/03/03 Goshawk Norfolk Horsey one through and Hen Harrier

17:33 31/03/03 Goshawk Norfolk Winterton-on-Sea over Winterton North Dunes, also 9 Common Buzzards, Peregrine, Short-eared Owl, Northern Wheatear, 16 Common Crossbills and 14 Sparrowhawks

It always surprises me why other reports are not tracked down the coast like this one.

cheers

Alex

_________________
Dr Alexander C. Lees
Lecturer in tropical ecology
Manchester Metropolitan University

Lab Associate
Cornell Lab of Ornithology,
Cornell University

http://www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm
@Alexander_Lees

Right lets put this whole thing in to perspective,i agree with the guy who says you need a good look at a goshawk,not a fleeting glimpse,i also agree with the point made that a good view of a Goshawk,their is no problem as i have found on only 3 occasions in lincs(in thirty five yrs of birding),a definite female over msq in march,a definite male at gokewell in october,with dave johnson and and a definite male at manton in december one year,these are genuine sightings based on experience,knowledge,and of previously studying these birds in their breeding areas.not only that john Harriman has in the last few years told me of at least 2 definite sightings he has had within the scunthorpe area,this guy has travelled all over the world and has immense experience and does not claim birds lightly,he had a good view of one at blackwalk nook near msq,i had a almost certain one myself but too brief,jh had a female/prolonged views at kirton quarrys.
On all these sightings it was obvious the sparrowhawk problem -was not a problem!!!,the gossys me and dave saw were a different structure,its not just a big sparrowhawk in other words,its shaped different,big chested,the wing shape to me always has a kink/bulge -classic s-shape curve to rear wing,and one thing looked for in the manton bird was the rounded tail tip,which showed well as the bird flew low over the manton hillside,dave noting the the hooded appearence while i concentrated on other features.
the flight of goshawk:
on all these sightings of mine and daves,the following observations were made:
1,Basically it did not fly like a sphwk!!!more like a powerfull crow like flight,no flap flap glide deviating flight,direct and powerful easy flaps..+above details.
i think Alex lees if you study Blacktoft sands records when Andrew greave was there their is reports of Goshawks in mainly march and october which suggests they entrered lincs!!!i have these reports.
Alex there is nothing more i want than you to see a gosey in lincs,to overcome your predilictions of fiqure and facts which at the end of the day prove nothing,as the black kite records clearly show in the last few years you and gpc were wrong on the status of black kites as you both are on goshawks.
Roger Hebb.

roger you seem to have the required i/d features well sussed wing, structure, tail, big broad deep chest and zizz my congrats upon your sightings,

terry whalin

Hi Roger!

Good to have you in the fold. I think we ought to stick to Accipiter rather than involve Milvus in this, but, while we're here....

I don't seem to remember being wrong about the status of BK, apologies for my 'predilictions of fiqure and facts' over heresay and speculation. Graham did score a little own goal over the Barton bird but this only served to show how hard BKs can be to identify. Moreover this bird's diagnostic primary damage facilitated its tracking all across eastern England, and dispelled thoughts of multiple birds residing in North Norfolk - if it wasn't for this then the totals would have been wrongly inflated. Cast your mind back to this graph on the status of BKs http://www.lincsbirds.co.uk/album/displ ... ?pos=-5450 this is irrefutable evidence, I'd suggest you reconsider your apparently immutable postion on this one and steer clear of logical fallacies.

Anyway back to Goshawks.

I've asked two questions. It still strikes me as odd that no-one has managed to take a picture of a Goshawk in the county - is there any other species (apart from some pelagic stuff) of an even vaguely comparable status that has not been photographed in this time-scale? Goshawks should occur in Lincs - as has been pointed out they breed as close as the Dukeries and in Yorks (status occluded by misidentification in both areas though). One would expect records on the coast to fall in March-April and Oct-Nov when small numbers of Continental birds occur, presumably British dispersers should occur in late summer-autumn. Moreover, the UK dispersers should be juveniles which are easier to identify than adults. Really, we should only expect juveniles until one or more birds set up territory. Once this happens then Goshawk will become easy. If its on territory then its showing on 70% of days between late Jan-April. Easy. So how come the reports are always adults? Goshawk territories in prey-rich lowland Britain are small - typically less than 10 square kilometres. Adults will not be visiting Lincs to hunt unless they breed here. They don't breed here because otherwise we would see them, they would end up killing crows in people's gardens like this one: http://www.jackiefreemanphotography.com/goshawk.htm . Note this is a hyper-diagnostic juv, or hunting the gulls on tips - something they do a lot both here and broad cf: this one http://www.lintukuva.fi/lajikuvat/accge ... en306i.jpg and this one: http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.p ... 4&lang=eng also check out the video of this one- I'm waiting for Roy to better it: http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/osta ... /1.6328371

Lincs has one of the lowest birder densities in England, south Lincs in particular is massively underwatched. In the main, Goshawk records don't come from south Lincs however (which has the most extensive areas of suitable habitat). This argument may become tautological but I certainly don't see how you can hide Goshawks anywhere in the north of the county. Enough birders to find them and no extensive areas of woodland from them to hide away in. They don't move around much, otherwise we would get records in Norfolk away from breeding sites (there are several well-known pairs in Breckland and in West Norfolk), they just seem to exhibit a high degree of natal philopatry. Although you state Roger that you have only a handful of personal sightings, you did formerly argue that Goshawks were permanently present in the county. I guess you consider this position untenable now? This still leaves us with the bizarre nature of the demographic structure of records, which strikes me as weird.....

Alex

_________________
Dr Alexander C. Lees
Lecturer in tropical ecology
Manchester Metropolitan University

Lab Associate
Cornell Lab of Ornithology,
Cornell University

http://www.freewebs.com/alexlees/index.htm
@Alexander_Lees

Hi Alex,just add to this photo thing,steve botham took a photo of a goshawk over boultham mere ,lincoln,if i remember correctly,and if i remember was accepted as one!!was not brilliant but good enough.
this is basically your argument all the time,like ufo sightings,if 99% of sightings can be explained away as not ufo"s the probability is that ufos do not exist,that 0ne per cent will not worry a university guy like you with all the facts and fiqures,same with goshawks you have this attitude which basically put,according to my research,this dont get recoreded there,so its not there!!!=rubbish!!!!are you really of such a immovable stance that you do not believe goshawks are never seen in lincs,and yes i do believe goshawks are probably breeding in the county they are so close to us breeding across border,its feasible to say the least,a gamekeeper told me and dave one defintly bred in broughton woods.
i could find facts to support my stance if i researched harder but dont have the time.
You tend to insinuate that birders such as i and dave and john harriman are wrong and have made mistakes because your university research says we are wrong,leave the research alone,try a more logical thinking that you knock,.
goshawks are secretive not easy to cam cord,not seen for long enough!!so dont throw that one at us.
but i respect your point of view i just dont agree with it alex,
yours roger.

Alex,

Couldn't resist getting in on the argument

Can I correct you when you say "that everyone seems to own a DSLR" I don't for one, they are a bit on the expensive side, unless someone would like to part with one [and there is more chance of me seeing a Goshawk in north Lincs, only joking Rog ] then I would be a willing receiver

Since taking up digi scoping I've never found it easy to take a shot of a moving target especially when it is doing an aerial display like the Goshawk I saw just over the Humber at Beacon Hill last year

Toodleloo chaps

Max

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GETTING OLD HAS IT'S ADVANTAGES BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THEY ARE lol

Just on a side view of this,i recently aquired yorkshire bird reports from 1940 to 1985(in mint condition)off e-bay cost about £40,all put in card cases well worth it,it would be interesting to go throu gossys in them ,as i havent yet,i do have later odd yorky reports,spurn reports etc.so maybe Alex i might do a bit of research myself!!anyhow i have to respect your analysis,but as i ive said dont agree with your overall stance on gossys in lincs.
Nice to hear from J T goy.
roger.
JUST TO ADD,S BOTHAM TOOK A PHOTO OF A GOSSY AT LINCOLN,BOULTHAM MERE I THINK, ,ACCEPTED AT THE TIME IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.
and just to clarify steves point the gossys i and dave saw were not fleeting views but good long views when as you state it was obvious to us we were not looking at a sphwk.
Roger.