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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Location: Tetney Marshes or Idle Valley Notts.
"Thorne and Hatfield Moors being saved from further peat extraction"

Can you give more than one example of NE prosecuting irresponsible dog walkers that attacked wildlife and just for the record Peter who was primarily responsible for allowing the peat companies to wreck the place for so many years in the fist place?

12 or more years ago now myself and another Twitcher worked with the local ringing group to catch and radio tag Nightjars on Hatfield and Thorn Moors.
We spent all summer for FREE surveying the Nightjars on the moors, to prove that peat removal had a direct effect on Nightjars breeding at hatfield moor. I don't want a medal for that, if it helped just a little to stop the devastation of Hatfield moor that was/is reward enough for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Just like to add my small thoughts on this. Am not going to get into the pros and cons of the habitat management of the Lincs coast under discussion, as i am not knowledgeable enough to have an opinion on it but just my thoughts from a visit to the coast on Sunday.

On the spur of the moment (and later than was probably wise) I decided to call at Donna Nook for a change instead of tromping round my dog-walker infested local patch. I arrived at the car-park around 1000 and wandered south as far as the MOD buildings and back. I was probably out for a little over 2 hours and in that time I saw very little in terms of passerines and was surprised to see Graham's list. The sparsity of my list was mainly down to my lack of recent fieldwork and my rubbishness at bird sounds and am sure there were more birds around than i saw.

In the time I was there i didn't see another birdwatcher in that stretch. However, i bet that most places alomg the Northumberland coast, Flamborough, Spurn & the Norfolk hotspots had significantly higher birder prescence per mile than there was on most of the Lincolnshire coast over the weekend. By the laws of probability more birds will be found, especially when linked to the different types of habitat.

I have often thought that the Lincs birders should put their 'independence' to one side on a particular day(s) when there is a 'fall' and work together to cover as much of the coast as is possible. Don't suppose it will ever happen but would be good if it could. I can however, see that there would be some big discussions as to who had which patch!!

My final thought is that several contributors have said "other parts have had significant numbers of birds and range of species compared to Lincolnshire" but I wonder under analysis how the numbers actually compared to the 60's / 70's etc? Would a reduction in numbers similar to that suggested by GC et al be found?

Anyway, am off to draw up plans for a Lincolnshire Coast Day of Action for the future!! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:17 pm 
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It is interesting to compare species diversity/numbers recorded from elsewhere with Lincolnshire over the bank holiday weekend. There were certainly some major arrivals of passerine migrants along the length of the east coast from Northumberland to Suffolk. Unfortunately, low observer coverage along Lincolnshire's extensive coastline is not a new phenomenon – and will always be a contributing factor in the number and variety of species found. From what I can gather from reports I have seen, some reasonable sections of coast were covered during favourable conditions for drift migrants, but inevitably only by a handful of birders. On Sunday I covered the area from Tetney Lock to North Cotes Point and hardly saw another person in several hours, let alone any other birders. On the same day, reports also came from Donna Nook, Saltfleet/Saltfleetby and of course Gib - and these areas did produce some good birds. Wryneck, Icterine Warbler and of course the main prize - the county (and Gibs) third Short-toed Lark. I also noticed that some areas between Mablethorpe and Chapel St. Leonards were covered, but observations here appeared to be concentrated on seawatching. However, large sections of the coast do currently have a Stalag Luft feel about them with endless miles of EA fencing making access tricky. Horseshoe Point to North Cotes Point and south of Horse Shoe Point as far as the eye can see would seem to be pretty much out of bounds. These areas may end up providing some interest in coming months, as I understand the work is almost complete and the sea banks are awaiting grass seeding. Seeding of a new sea bank at Butterwick Marsh on the Wash back in 1986 attracted a flock of up to 350 Lapland Buntings, so this area may yet be productive as the autumn/winter months progress.

Anyway, back to the weekend. Just across the Humber from where I was watching, the daily tally for the Spurn area was 27 Wrynecks (a new record count for the Spurn area), a Greenish Warbler, 3 Icterine Warblers, Barred Warbler, Wood Warbler, Red-backed Shrike, 2 Cuckoo, 13 Tree Pipit, 37 Yellow Wagtail, 52 Redstart, 105 Whinchat, 59 Wheatear, 3 Grasshopper Warbler, 12 Reed Warbler, 36 Garden Warbler, 12 Lesser Whitethroat, 1 Chiffchaff, 79 Willow Warbler, 13 Spotted Flycatcher and 92 Pied Flycatcher. In my mind, the law of averages says that several of these species should at least be represented in the area that I was searching (or is the 'Spurn Shadow' that great that everything missing this section of coast and just stopped the other side of the Humber?). Despite such promising conditions I found it very hard going, to the point where I started to contemplate if I had been walking round with my eyes shut and seriously doubted my bird finding skills. Not all species involved in the above Spurn list are skulking bush huggers, so could I really have missed so many birds? Perhaps they just really weren't there. From a 'migrant' perspective my tally of 2 Willow Warblers and a Pied Flycatcher is pathetic by comparison. It is interesting to note that better numbers were seen further south along the Lincs coast, but certainly not on the scale of that witnessed just a few miles to the north in E Yorks. Perhaps we can blame the weather, and it was just the wrong kind of perfect drift migrant conditions to bring any quantity of birds to Lincolnshire's coastal bushes?

Matthew


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Location: Saltfleet and Tipton, West Mids.
John Walker wrote:
I should not be suprised at some of the comment here from rare bird seekers not
recognising that Saltfleetby is far more than a bird reserve, various grassland butterfly species have had one of the best years since the transect began in 1978, marsh helleborine numbered a few hundreds at best in the 1980s over 7000 were
counted in 2012, and 32000 this year,Marsh Pea a national rare species has expanded and accounts for over 50% of the national population on this nnr, it also supports the largest extanct population of marsh moth and cruxifix beetle both national red data species, the dense scrub zones hold some of the densest populations of breeding whitethroats with over 140 territories cuckoos still breed 23 butterfly species 16 odonata species overs 300 plant species,
68 species of bee and wasp, natterjack toads breed, etc
Its is one of the finest natural dune systems on the east coast and the reserve is internationally recognised for this
notified as sssi, spa, sac as well as nnr, many of the visiting naturalists recognise this because they understand
the wealth of special fauna that occurs, and whether a rare bird occurs or not is of no consequence.
Rabbits were controlled during the 1980s and 90s because adjacent landowners were threatening legal action for crop
damage non have been shot for 9 years as the LWT now has ownership of 110 acres of adjacent land removing much of that requirement.
The total area of scrub on the reserve was reduced by 40 acres through 2005 to 2008 under the favourable condition assessment, a form of assessment applied to all SSSIs/ NNRs throughout the country.
Grahame hits the nail on the head in his last post, The population of Africe has trebelled over the past 40 years and many of those people are pasturalists with goats that have ravaged thousands of square miles of wild habitas degrading them and the populations of birds that depend on them, having travelled large parts of Kenya during the 1970s and again in 2009 i was staggered at the huge numbers of people and goats in areas that had almost non 36 years ago with new roads and towns
where previously it was wilderness and this occurs across much of the continent.
The lack of migrants on this nnr applies to much of the east coast and has nothing to do with people or management,
rare birds can turn up in almost any location, remember the american robin in Grimsby as an example
Comments such as Geoff Williams are typical of a bird twitcher and pay no regards to what the NNR is about
and even the RSPB are now focussing on Wildlife conservation as well as birds ,see there national TV adverts..
John.

It was good to see John's reply to the debate, but first I would like to say I'm not a twitcher and I didn't even bother going to see the Short toed Lark. I do like to see orchids/wildflowers, butterflies and dragonflies etc. and generally if a place is good for birds then it's also good for other things.
I used to enjoy visiting Rimac when you could walk the track near the fresh marsh and cross the wooden bridges, looking for Crakes, Bitterns and Bearded Tit but they were closed off and now you can only walk boring paths with not much to look at. It looks like I'll be leaving the place to the dog walkers, at least they enjoy it.
Regarding the Sea Buckthorn along the coast, it may be a native species but it's about as useful as Rhododendron to wildlife apart from the berries it produces. If you look closely at an old Buckthorn bush you will see that 90% of it is a dead plant with no leaves and no insect life apart from the occasional moth caterpillar and because it's so dark inside nothing else grows. If controlled then it can be a useful species but it is so invasive.
Geoff


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:20 pm 
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Very balanced and comprehensive replies from John and Peter and I know that (nearly?) all members of this club enjoy and appreciate the diversity you both allude to but you can expect a bird bias here. The clue is at the top of the page - Lincolnshire Bird Club

John

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:18 pm 
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Hi Geoff.
That old Rimac path you mentioned brings back memories.
When you could walk straight down the path next to a water filled ditch while looking over the then much wetter and IMHO much better fresh marsh, ending at a wide open pool at the end of that ditch on the corner.
I've spent some time just sitting there in expectations looking into and over this whole area.
Then it was off across the well trodden wooden bridge to continue our walk alongside the Fen like habitat to the south and rough grassland areas with several pools and a few migrant hungry bushes dotted around the remaining areas.

As you pointed out Geoff, just having the opportunity to slowly walk one of the best paths and areas on the reserve (then), while constantly looking and listening for Sedge & Reed Warbler, Crakes, Bitterns and Bearded Tits with the expectation of something more special maybe, was worth the long trip to Rimac from my home in Nth. Notts. on its own.

Unfortunately the bridges were never maintained properly, resulting in the "dangerous" bridges being 'CLOSED' rather than repairing them. Why?

I'm with you Geoff in rarely visiting what's left of the 'Post Bridge Closure' and now rather boring dog walker friendly pathways left in this part of the NNR. Real shame really when so many visitors are missing out on what once was.

The bridges only wanted a few £ spending on them.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:27 pm 
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It is to be expected that persons involved in the running of the reserve to defend their positions but the
policy-makers, national or local, should expect criticism if it is perceived that they are making bad decisions. If the reserve had its own qualified ecologist/resident scientist (cc. Scott or Tim Clifford in the past) he or she would have advocated that when trees or bushes are felled the wood should be left to rot naturally in situ not immediately burnt or otherwise disposed of. Ever heard of fungi? They are an important component of the natural ecosystem and if anyone has watched the ecology programmes that Chris Packham produces for the BBC/Open University (I don't mean Springwatch) you would see how important they are with most of their activity going on underground. When I see at Saltfleetby mounds of smouldering ash next to felled trees It annoys me to see that the big picture of natural consequences has been ignored.
Sometimes, after a tour round the reserve, I return home to my half-acre and see more passerines in my garden than I have seen on the reserve. And what of species like Willow Tit, Long-eared Owl, Rufous Nightingale and Bullfinch which I used to see regularly on the reserve are now absent or virtually so. It is not good enough to say that these species have declined nationally so that's OK. It is precisely that species decline nationally because they are not catered for locally. I am not looking for rare birds when I visit the reserve but enjoy every species in its own right. Expecting to see a fall of migrants there is not unreasonable and finding something a little unusual is a delight but is not the raison-d'être for going there.
I think the reason you don't see many bird watchers there is because it is not a good place to see birds but it should be. I enjoy and appreciate all wildlife and I want to see a reserve that provides a diverse and thriving population of all the species it should support. I don't get that impression with the reserve as it now is. To say it's a good reserve for Marsh Moth or Marsh Pea or Natterjack Toad is fine but it's not the whole picture and as I have stated in previous posts the old woody Sea Buckthorn, the non-management of the grassy areas (which I believe is the cause of the decline of orchids, not that they are fickle species), the shooting of the rabbits and the introduction of cattle-ranching are some of the factors for Saltfleetby NNR's decline (I am unimpressed with statistics like the CBC Chaffinch productivity - it is a ubiquitous species that is not too fussy about habitat requirements).
One final point. Who foots the bill for all the cattle fencing which must run into thousands? Farmer or the good old taxpayer yet again!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:50 pm 
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Mike Tarrant wrote:
It is to be expected that persons involved in the running of the reserve to defend their positions but the policy-makers, national or local, should expect criticism if it is perceived that they are making bad decisions. <BIG SNIP> !


Ditto

Love the "introduction of cattle-ranching" comment

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:01 am 
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The marsh path was closed due to dogs in the ditches and ponds damaging fauna,
The fences at Rimac were erected in 1976 to allow cattle to graze down the long grasses your complaing about so were there when the migrant birds were more numerous.
The cattle come on to the site in the autumn because thats when they are available from local graziers and summer grazing would damage the flowers, so in some seasons the grasses grow taller, ( memories can be selective).
Rabbit populations fluctuate every year
Bullfinches breed in the same locations as they did in the 70s and 2 pairs raised broods of young within 150m of my house.
When you read of the national declines in many species of british breeding birds some of 80% and then moan that theres too much dense scrub where some species breed it baffles me, ( as the only person whos voluntarily monitored the breeding birds on part of the reserve reperesenting the dune/marsh habitats for 36 consecutive years )
Spurn and Gib have always produced far more migrants as they are peninsulas and both those sites have seen declines in migrant bird numbers and we all know every season is different for plant growth, insects, mammals and birds.
Climate change is having its impact

.John


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:58 am 
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Quote:
That old Rimac path you mentioned brings back memories.
When you could walk straight down the path next to a water filled ditch while looking over the then much wetter and IMHO much better fresh marsh


Before that it was an area that had dried out and was being invaded by scrub. In the early 80s I led working parties from a local school to clear and burn the scrub. We dug the pond in the middle and it became the wetter better marsh. Things change and, as John points out, things have to change. You make a place accessible and it creates access for morons too...

John

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:39 am 
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For information - Natural England is currently going through a programme of dedicating open access on all its owned NNRs. There is a process which is undertaken which looks into the consideration if there will be any impact on the conservation values of that NNR. If after any dedication there is seen to be an impact then the question of open access will be addressed in areas concerned. If dedicated one caveat is that the legislation under CRoW will apply...this includes all dogs to be on a lead during the bird breeding season. Open access means what it says and folk could walk anywhere dedicated on an NNR but the majority of people will stick to the existing pathways. Saltfleetby-Theddlethorpe Dunes NNR is currently going through that process and it has its fair share of paths. This comment doesn't directly relate to the thread but I thought it useful to share. NNRs are under enormous pressure to provide more access for the general public provided it doesn't have any significant impact on nature conservation importance of the site.

Peter


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:09 am 
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[/quote] Before that it was an area that had dried out and was being invaded by scrub. In the early 80s I led working parties from a local school to clear and burn the scrub. We dug the pond in the middle and it became the wetter better marsh. Things change and, as John points out, things have to change. You make a place accessible and it creates access for morons too...John[/quote]

That's the problem with the world today. Taking the easy way out appears to be the preferred option when dealing with vandals or irressponsible dog walkers. Closing an area or pathway as the solution to stopping the yobs is unacceptable. As sensible people (taxpayers) are denied their simple pleasures of enjoying the environment. In this case a favorite walk.

That was not the case with this path at Rimac.
I do recall (not selectively) but clearly, reading the sign posted on the bridge at the time.
It read "Bridge closed for repair". I enquired some months later as to why the bridge/path was still closed off. I was informed, "The bridge was in a dangerous condition".
So being me, I wrote a letter and got a similar response and an assurance that the bridge would be repair when finances allowed and access along the ditch would soon be restored.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Peter Roworth wrote:
For information - Natural England is currently going through a programme of dedicating open access on all its owned NNRs. There is a process which is undertaken which looks into the consideration if there will be any impact on the conservation values of that NNR. If after any dedication there is seen to be an impact then the question of open access will be addressed in areas concerned. If dedicated one caveat is that the legislation under CRoW will apply...this includes all dogs to be on a lead during the bird breeding season. Open access means what it says and folk could walk anywhere dedicated on an NNR but the majority of people will stick to the existing pathways. Saltfleetby-Theddlethorpe Dunes NNR is currently going through that process and it has its fair share of paths. This comment doesn't directly relate to the thread but I thought it useful to share. NNRs are under enormous pressure to provide more access for the general public provided it doesn't have any significant impact on nature conservation importance of the site.

Peter

On my local patch RSPB Middleton Lakes there was a problem with dog walkers as they are allowed to use public footpaths, they have recently put up signs saying, Woof Woof, dogs are allowed on the reserve if on a lead in designated areas. and then another sign for none dog areas saying, Sniff Sniff, Otters don't like dogs, so please do not enter, (or words to that affect) It's a bit of dumbing down but appears to be working as people start to realise that dogs are not that welcome.
I would love to see more birders walks opened at Rimac, where dogs are not allowed.
Geoff


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:14 am 
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Just a quick follow up to my posting and Mike's response. When I referred to the way we had developed our garden and field here at Brickyard Lane, I was using the example of 16 breeding species here to demonstrate how good it was in spring and summer, but then how poor it had been during the recent fall of migrants, with only the odd flycatcher and redstart. It was so much better years ago, but Mike took it that I was using my comments to demonstrate that the reserve just how poor the reserve was. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

Should we all have pagers to know instantly what's about elsewhere? Personally, I think not. I enjoy taking a walk and seeing what I do, without constantly being harassed by the pager advising me what I'm missing elsewhere and so spoiling a nice day. I can pretty well predict what will turn up where these days without the use of a pager, but I am a subscriber to Bird Guides platinum service, so can get up to full speed each evening, a much less stressful approach.

Mike refers to the restricted area that Tim Clifford, an earlier reserve manager put in place many years ago. I recall that Tim was constantly bemoaning the fact that there seemed to be one rule for most people and another for twitchers, who couldn't keep out of the area. No wander interesting birds never bred. Equally, Rob Lidstone Scott has had to shift twitchers this year, who have wandered right into the LWT area just north of Sea View, so disturbing the feeding waders. Having had the 'east wind' fever myself for so many years, I used to be up at 0400hrs in autumn to drive 20 miles to go ringing at Donna Nook before breakfast and still be back at work in Grimsby by 0900hrs, I do appreciate what it's about, but fortunately I also appreciate the wider aspects of the coast too.

A walk along the dunes in March can show just how desolate the area can be after a long winter, but in just a few short weeks time, it comes alive with breeding birds and there are whitethroats in every 50 metres or so of buckthorn. Lesser whitethroats were virtually unknown as breeding species a few years ago and yet they have now become a common breeding species. As John points out, we still have cuckoos breeding, 3 pairs I believe this year and an amazing 5 pairs of turtle doves still here!

Peter also refers to sea buckthorn fruiting. The 2012 cold spring with strong easterly winds and freezing temperatures virtually destroyed the whole autumn crop of fruit. Once the huge fall of thrushes in October moved on a couple of weeks later, the hawthorn berries had virtually all been eaten. This meant that with no buckthorn berries, for the first time in my memory, we had no wintering redwings and fieldfares and my thrush squares were empty.

My view is that I would forfeit being able to see autumn migrants to have such wonderful breeding birds and in most years at least, ample fruit for winter thrushes.

Regards,
Cliff


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:33 am 
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Geoff Williams wrote:
Peter Roworth wrote:
For information - Natural England is currently going through a programme of dedicating open access on all its owned NNRs. There is a process which is undertaken which looks into the consideration if there will be any impact on the conservation values of that NNR. If after any dedication there is seen to be an impact then the question of open access will be addressed in areas concerned. If dedicated one caveat is that the legislation under CRoW will apply...this includes all dogs to be on a lead during the bird breeding season. Open access means what it says and folk could walk anywhere dedicated on an NNR but the majority of people will stick to the existing pathways. Saltfleetby-Theddlethorpe Dunes NNR is currently going through that process and it has its fair share of paths. This comment doesn't directly relate to the thread but I thought it useful to share. NNRs are under enormous pressure to provide more access for the general public provided it doesn't have any significant impact on nature conservation importance of the site.

Peter

On my local patch RSPB Middleton Lakes there was a problem with dog walkers as they are allowed to use public footpaths, they have recently put up signs saying, Woof Woof, dogs are allowed on the reserve if on a lead in designated areas. and then another sign for none dog areas saying, Sniff Sniff, Otters don't like dogs, so please do not enter, (or words to that affect) It's a bit of dumbing down but appears to be working as people start to realise that dogs are not that welcome.
I would love to see more birders walks opened at Rimac, where dogs are not allowed.
Geoff


I'll vote for that idea Geoff.
With the pathways signed - 'Woof Sniff' - Dog owners not welcome!

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